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I was letting my mind wonder through some of those what if scenarios we have discussed in this forum. Here's a couple of hypotheticals. If they're too silly and I've become a mall ninja feel free to put me out of my misery.

First scenario: Someone who you have obviously made contact with and you know they are out to do you harm (not just a bad driver) attempts to run at/over you with their vehicle, do you have the right to fire or would it be better (in the legal arena) to try a Jackie Chan and maneuver yourself out of the way?

Second scenario: Someone threatens you with a dog that you know to be aggressive either by temperment from previous knowledge or by characteristics of the breed, do you have the right to fire? In this situation I think you only have the right to fire on the dog if it approaches you and is not leashed. However is the dog a deadly weapon?
 

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1. good question.. probably not.. i'd say try to get away firing at high speed is pretty dangerous for everyone including innocent bystandards.. if the situation was dire enough though it would be a option.

2. no dont have the right if you're threatened if the owner sicks a dog on you though put poor fido out of your misery, ya a dog is a deadly weapon, you do not have the right to shoot the owner though even if attacked by the dog.

i should note these are my personal not professional opinions and may or may not be in agreement with your local law enforcement or your local DA's mood for that hour.
 

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It's a good thing to run scenarios like these through your mind but guess what---when they actually happen...you're still not prepared. ;)
 

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In My opinion Cops shoot people in cars all the time BUT its in the line of duty trying to make an arrest. Only if you can't retreat and be able to prove it I'd hold off on the car unless your cornered and you have no other choice I'd hope for good witnesses and not be envoled in any banter or verbal escalation on the car thing thats tricky even for LEO. As for the dog I have been attacked and was able to choke the dog out by its collar. I would not recomend it. The LEO that showed up said I had the right to use leathal force but was only armed with a knife and I was kind of busy. the guy depends on his actions after the dog attack. There was a post ahwile back that was vary similar and the guy is in prison for shooting the guy with the dogs. That was a mess and should be looked into further. Like Joe this is my opinion and don't claim to be an axpert. I'd seek NYPD's veiw on this one. or other LEO's
 

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In the car incident! If I am walking, not in my car! I would try very hard to get out of the way. If he is close enough to be a danger to me, he is too close and moving to fast to draw and fire soon enough to protect me from a 3000 lb plus weapon. However, if he makes a circle, or throws it in reverse and trys to come back at me, all bets are off. If I can avoid by getting behind protection,(not concealment) I would. NO way to hide, his weapon is deadly to me. So then I shoot. I will avoid unless there is no other option.

Dog being sic'd on me. Depends on the dog, (breed & size), I have been envolved with animals small and large all my life so for me the fear factor is small. Having read the incident where the hiker, shot the guy with two dogs who might have been nutz, firing a shot at the owner would not be a great idea, IMHO. I have never run into a dog, I could not stop without deadly force. Only ones to ever bite me were tiny little things, that could not reach above my ankle without jumping. I will not say what methods I have used on larger ones, but feet, knees, and last resort hands come to mind quickly. How you employ them is up to you, you may be bitten, but you can stop them IMO.
 

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If you are walking, I would recommend getting out of the way. If there are no witnesses, you will have an extremely hard time proving your case. Yes the Police do it, but they have OTHER police as witnesses. However, it WOULD be legal as a 4,000 pound car is considered a deadly weapon. I recommend no to do it though.

As for the dog, SHOOT THE DOG... not the owner! If the dog is on a leash DO NOT shoot the dog.
 

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Regarding Cars:
Assuming you are on foot and someone is trying to hit you with a car, I'd say get out of the way if at all possible. It is much easier to evade a car while on foot. Most of the time.

Assuming you are shooting a .45 acp with 230 grain [insert brand] ammo. There is no way in physics, or common sense that a 230 grain bullet (police or civilian) will stop a two ton car. Won't happen. Let's say you hit the driver and take him out. Now what? You still have a 2 ton moving hunk of metal, only now it is uncontrolled. It sails past you, if your lucky, and turns the local Stop-N-Rob into a drive-through. Trouble is, the car takes out the poor clerk working the night shift for minimum wages. Ooops. Can you say negligent homicide? You are responsible for that bullet(s) and anything that results from that shot. Any first year law student would be able to convince a jury of your peers (?) that had good ol' gunfun1002 not shot and killed the poor "innocent motorist" who was only trying to get away from some crazy man with a gun, Mohammad al-Gimmedough would be alive this very day. You may not be charged with a crime, depending on where you live, but you sure as heck can expect to be sued for big bux.

Regarding Rover:
If in your mind, you are in fear of imminent death or great physical injury, you may use deadly force to defend yourself. I think that’s how most states phrase it. If it is “Bullet” the pit-bull, running wild in a neighborhood, you shouldn’t have a problem. If, on the other hand it is “Fluffy” the Pekinese being held on a leash by the Widow Jones down the street, you may have a lot of splain’n to do.

Remember Pioneer’s first law of survival; For every action, there is an equal but opposite lawyer waiting to sue your ass. Our training unit taught us to offer your support arm to the dog for one free bite, and then shoot it. It will look better in front of a jury. Riiiiight.


 

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Not to completely discount the car scenario, I *think* that most carjackings are probably initiated when your car is still - if you're rolling, it's much easier to get away and call the police. In my mind, most jackings occur when you can be isolated, such as one car in front of you, not moving, and another behind you that bumps you.....you get out, and bam - bad news. Most people probably exacerbate the situation by not being in condition yellow, and not leaving enough room between themselves and the front car to take action, should your instincts tell you something is wrong. There was a story about a lady in Dallas who stopped at an ATM at 2am yesterday morning, on her way home from work.....she's most likely in automatic mode, and all of a sudden she's got a gun at her head and one of the perps reaches in and turns off the engine. Luckily, they just robbed her of all the money she would withdraw, and they completely got away.

I think that if more people, including myself, wouldn't allow themselves to let their mind slip into neutral, we'd all be readier for these kinds of situations when they arise.
 

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It's okay Orlando, embrace the dementia......
 

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texastaurusguy said:
It's okay Orlando, embrace the dementia......
I wonder about your dementia sometimes too!! When did this become a carjacking senario! I thought I had misread the first post for a sec.

"First scenario: Someone who you have obviously made contact with and you know they are out to do you harm (not just a bad driver) attempts to run at/over you with their vehicle, do you have the right to fire or would it be better (in the legal arena) to try a Jackie Chan and maneuver yourself out of the way?"

Just having fun with YA! but you accusing others of dementia, and I am OLD!!
 

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Shoot, Robby, I'm probably further along than most of you..... :p
 

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I learned at a young age to respect my elders cause they do some crazy sh$t when threatened.
and some can give a good ole fashion whup butt when you think they can hardly walk. Just remember one of the greatest generations ever Thanks guys.
 
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