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Sometimes you hear ant gunners claim that concealed carry or armed security is not an answer, that it might not work against a mass shooter. I remembered something that my father (co pilot) once told me about his WW2 experiences that might be relevant, an analogy I guess. One day he had a non army passenger on his plane, and the passenger was told they might have to abandon the plane in an emergency, and what the emergency procedures were. An emergency landing was simply not possible due to the terrain below. You stay in the plane you die, simple as that. The guy had never jumped before, and asked if they could ensure that the parachute would open properly and that he would land safely. The pilot replied, "Ensure? no. But you're always free to jump without one and take your chances."
 

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I have been wrestling with a similar question that I was going to start a thread on. There was a carjacking in the village near me last week, in fact the little village I grew up in. It's grown from 1700 people to over 35,000 as I have grown old and apparently changed in other ways.

A lady in her 60's was leaving a food store and two guys stated that they had a gun and were going to take her car. They punched her out, probably unnecessarily, and took her car which was found abandoned 5 miles south.

My question is ...if approached and threatened verbally with the person claiming they have a firearm yet not producing one, would you respond with deadly force? Or take the chance to wait and be late on the draw?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I have been wrestling with a similar question that I was going to start a thread on. There was a carjacking in the village near me last week, in fact the little village I grew up in. It's grown from 1700 people to over 35,000 as I have grown old and apparently changed in other ways.

A lady in her 60's was leaving a food store and two guys stated that they had a gun and were going to take her car. They punched her out, probably unnecessarily, and took her car which was found abandoned 5 miles south.

My question is ...if approached and threatened verbally with the person claiming they have a firearm yet not producing one, would you respond with deadly force? Or take the chance to wait and be late on the draw?
That's a very interesting question. So interesting in fact that it would be a very good original topic. If you posted it as an OP you might get more and better answers, so I'm going to wait to weigh in on this subject. :)
 

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Yes. Great question. Gonna' have to cipher on that one for a while.
 

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If I were in a situation where my life or the lives of others were a stake, I would not hesitate to respond with deadly force.
 

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Getting back to Pegasus' post, the objection that it might not work is silly. The brakes on my car might not work. I've had brakes fail. But I haven't started ordering cars without brakes.
 

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Sometimes you hear ant gunners claim that concealed carry or armed security is not an answer, that it might not work against a mass shooter.
It certainly is my answer. It at least gives me and those nearby a chance. That's better than no chance.
 

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Sorry about the hijack...I will start a new thread on my subject.

Regarding the original post, I recall that same question raised after the Colorado movie theater massacre.

In a panic situation, in a crowded venue, the sheepdog trying to protect themselves and the rest of the flock could easily be misunderstood as being the wolf by LE or other sheepdogs. I'm with Mark however in that I at least want the opportunity to protect myself and my loved ones.
 

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I don't allow people to approach. My window stays up and I drive away. If I must allow approach, there's a gun on my lap under my hat or baseball cap.

I am afraid that I clouded the issue. The question here is whether or not a concealed carry is effective in a mass shooting...crowded venue.
 
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I think that would depend on the ability of the concealed carrier. If you shoot at someone hellbent on killing a lot of people you can bet they will divert their attention to you if you miss. You may well be outgunned so make your shots count or try to get away and use your weapon in a last resort scenario.
 

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I think that would depend on the ability of the concealed carrier. If you shoot at someone hellbent on killing a lot of people you can bet they will divert their attention to you if you miss. You may well be outgunned so make your shots count or try to get away and use your weapon in a last resort scenario.
In addition to the likelihood of inflicting collateral damage to bystanders.
 
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It all depends on the situation.

The texas church shooter had body armor so you would have had to have a head shot. the guy yesterday at the mcdonalds was taken out by a a armed civilian, my guess is he didn't have body armor.

But in any situation if you are armed at least there is a chance.

The guy at the krogers who killed 2 people wasn't able to kill more because a armed bystander engaged him in a gun fight. he wasn't able to hit him and take him down but kept him occupied until police came.
 

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I have been wrestling with a similar question that I was going to start a thread on. There was a carjacking in the village near me last week, in fact the little village I grew up in. It's grown from 1700 people to over 35,000 as I have grown old and apparently changed in other ways.

A lady in her 60's was leaving a food store and two guys stated that they had a gun and were going to take her car. They punched her out, probably unnecessarily, and took her car which was found abandoned 5 miles south.

My question is ...if approached and threatened verbally with the person claiming they have a firearm yet not producing one, would you respond with deadly force? Or take the chance to wait and be late on the draw?
Draw early and hold at low ready. If at that point they do anything but turn & run, I would start firing.
 

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In a church or other mass shooting scenario, I fall in the Noblesse Oblige camp. Those who have the power to do something must because of those who cannot. I also believe that if you have CC permitted in areas, you're not going to be the only person carrying concealed. Depending on the area, you could have upwards of 5 people carrying out of a group of 50.
 

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If I'm out in public, there is an 80% chance I'm with my wife. In that case, my sole concern is getting her to safety. If I'm shooting, I'm most likely covering her retreat.
 

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In addition to the likelihood of inflicting collateral damage to bystanders.
I'm not saying don't take bystanders into account in your decision to shoot but if someone is shooting people indiscriminately in a crowed building then he must be stopped. If I could find some kind of cover I would do my best to shoot straight but I would shoot if at all possible.
 

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Interesting that this story happened more than 70 years ago. It sounds like someone in today's world who is wanting to "ensure" something will work. The only things that we can "ensure" are that you will die, and you will owe taxes. Things fail, people fail. I was never a scout, but one can always try his best to "be prepared".
 

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I am afraid that I clouded the issue. The question here is whether or not a concealed carry is effective in a mass shooting...crowded venue.
I think it can be, on a small scale. There are a number of dangers. 1) When the cops get there, they are on an adrenaline rush and will be hard pressed to tell the good guys from the bad guys (if the bad have not already suicided). 2) The vast majority of CHL holders have their card, a gun and that's all - very little or no SD training. Standing and shooting at a bullseye target is not combat training. 3) It is not the charter of a CHL holder to be protector of anyone or anything not directly associated with him/her - family, dependents, self, home, car. For example (not a terrorist situation) if I walk into a bank armed and a robbery takes place, unless I or my family is directly threatened, I'll be a good witness. 4) Even with very good situational awareness, it would be hard or impossible to spot all of the perpetrators should there be multiple or even spot the only one for sure.

On the other hand, if it's a sure thing and one can take a good from-cover shot, (to the head since the bad guy could be wearing body armor) it could serve to mitigate a mass shooting. But I am of the opinion that a CHL holder would not really make a tremendous difference.
 
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