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Discussion Starter #1
In the other discussion about +P+ ammo some have suggested that certain types of ammo have been regulated to "law enforcement only ammo." Well according to current law the only ammo that us common people cannot legally posses is either high explosive (HE) or pistol ammunition specifically designed to penetrate body(AP). Everything else is fair game. So according to the law you can own high velocity ammunition as long as it doesn't explode or is a pistol caliber that was specifically designed to penetrate body armor. There are some state and local regulations on the subject, but for the most part LEO marked ammo is legal to posses. There are some liability reasons as to why ammo makers only make it available to Law enforcement, but mainly it's because they don't want somebody to sue them if their hot loads blow up their gun. Not because they fear that some crazy DA will implicate them in a mass murder. Whether or not you want to shoot the stuff is entirely up to the user. If your pistol can take it by all means.
 

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dont really know why they do that. im planing on getting some federal HST's which are actually standard pressure.. although i believe i heard they also have a +p version of all but the 147gr.. meh.. i really dont dig +p and +p+ rounds.. sure if you need every once of ass whuppin you can muster they're ok but im pretty confident in standard pressure rounds for most calibers.

the federal HST is LEO only.. it's obviously not because it's to hot.


im not sure what your question is exactly i'd imagine FMJ would actually stand a good chance to penetrate armor.. but i know steel core WILL penetrate armor.. although i dont know if they are marketed as such and are banned or what not..

you could of course probably make your own.. never really thought about it, my understanding is the so called "cop killer" bullets was never actually used in a LEO shooting, or at least not one where they was wearing a vest, was actually the media hyping it up..

to be honest i dont think many leos wear vests do they?, think it's usually swat or during raids and big busts they wear them i thought.
 

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I distinctly remember the uproar about Black Talons - the media incorrectly thought they were armor piercing, and ran with it - and even though this was obviously a myth, the story grew legs and finally Winchester changed it to "law enforcement only". This was probably 1993 or so. I had already purchased several boxes of it in 357 magnum....matter of fact, I just used up the last of it that I found in my old 357 magnum speedloader. VERY stout round, kicked as much as the famed 125 gr SJHP Federal load. My point is, I think alot of the hype over +P+ is very likely society or media driven. They think it's more 'humane' or 'genteel' to shoot somebody with a regular round of ammo than something that was meant for police only. This logic comes from the same people who sit around and draw up gun legislation to keep bad guys from purchasing guns in gun shops, or a one-gun-per-month rule. If you want to slow down bad guys getting guns, go after the black market - HARD. Don't make the honest, hard working gun shop owner suffer with more rules and regulations he can deal with.
 

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texastaurusguy said:
This logic comes from the same people who sit around and draw up gun legislation to keep bad guys from purchasing guns in gun shops, or a one-gun-per-month rule. If you want to slow down bad guys getting guns, go after the black market - HARD. Don't make the honest, hard working gun shop owner suffer with more rules and regulations he can deal with.

Yep they will never get it. And us good guys are going to suffer more and more from it.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
You can get steel core for any rifle rounds but you cannot for pistol calibers. Case in point is FNs relatively new round the 5.7 mm. for the longest time FN couldn't import for civilian sales until significant quantities of non steel core ammo was manufactured because the round could be used in their pistol. That stuff was designed to go through a vest and their 5.7 pistol and rifle could both chamber it hence the restriction. A few friends of mine who work for the feds say they use a special round for their .40 cal that goes through kevlar like it was paper while on duty. As for full metal jacket, it depends: level III a can take .556 but gets iffy on .308 unless you have the trauma plate and the new "dragon scale they got out now is sposed to take care of steel core, but if you take one from a .50 your still dead. I have a steel gong that was supposed to be able to take up to a .44 mag, but my first outing with my ar-15 proved that it was rated only for lead. 100 yards with 55 gr hardball and it was swiss cheese.
 

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Really who cares I mean how many of us law abiding citizens are really looking to shoot through bullet proof vest anyway I thought we'd be more apt to be shooting some strung out home invader with a tore up t-shirt. Bullet proof does not mean shock proof a 12 gage slug is going to put someone on his but bigtime. and a 308 or 30.06 is going through just about everything. I used to have ammo cans of the stuff when I was young and it would go through anything out at the old dump.
Oh by the wat some leo or tac loads are loaded down like in 12 gage so you can get back on target faster so it dose not always mean hot loads
 

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45 i agree.. and i think thats kinda the point.. not even the criminals use that stuff it just does'nt show up in shootings it's to exotic.

hence the media likes to hype BS to the 9th degree even when no such statistics backup the fear.

with that being said if people want steel cores let'em have it..
 

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A particularly annoying aspect of this myth of "illegal for civilian use" ammo, is that it seems to be perpetuated by the ammo companies themselves.
 

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Ace said:
You can get steel core for any rifle rounds but you cannot for pistol calibers. Case in point is FNs relatively new round the 5.7 mm. for the longest time FN couldn't import for civilian sales until significant quantities of non steel core ammo was manufactured because the round could be used in their pistol. That stuff was designed to go through a vest and their 5.7 pistol and rifle could both chamber it hence the restriction. A few friends of mine who work for the feds say they use a special round for their .40 cal that goes through kevlar like it was paper while on duty. As for full metal jacket, it depends: level III a can take .556 but gets iffy on .308 unless you have the trauma plate and the new "dragon scale they got out now is sposed to take care of steel core, but if you take one from a .50 your still dead. I have a steel gong that was supposed to be able to take up to a .44 mag, but my first outing with my ar-15 proved that it was rated only for lead. 100 yards with 55 gr hardball and it was swiss cheese.
I saw a show on the reason that they switched to the lighter .223 rifles in vietnam vs the heavier .308 m4/m14s because they would penetrate a steel helmet at a certain distance where a .308 wouldn't. They even did a live fire test and proofed it. The .223 is a hell of a good penetrator. I bet some of the heavier 69-80 grain loads would go threw class III armor up close compared to the standard 55grain frangible ammo.
 

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A 308 will most likely out penetrate a 223 at any given range, assuming similar bullet design. There is simply more energy available to do the work. The 223 has the advantage of less recoil, more rounds per given weight and it doesn't require as heavy a weapon to fire. And I think it was discovered while reviewing combat data from WWII that most fights were taking place within 300 meters. The smaller cartridge works fine there. Its when the distance stretches out that the 223 just runs out of steam, even if it can connect.

Steelheart
 

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The 308 will go through just about anything incuding a steel helmet it will bust an engine block of a car. It will go through both sides of a car and the two people in the front seat the 223 won't. It was weight, amount of ammo . Just look at some of our guys in Iraq you'll see several carrying AK-47 because they hit harder. Two of my friends that served in Vietnam said they would toss there M-16 for the old grease gun in 45 or carry the m-14 if given the chance.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
There are many in the armed forces right now who want to go back to the M-14, especially those who are serving Iraq and Afganistan the 223 just doesn't have enough juice past 900 meters. Hence the development of the 6.8 remington. Strangely enough the next service pistol, whatever it is will be back in the good ol .45 caliber, I couldn't agree more with that decision.
 

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we'll going to a shorter barreled m4 does'nt help either..

i would think it makes sense since it seems the move is towards smaller lighter armed but more mobile strike teams.

i dunno i dont really keep up on the military seeing as i think there reaches a point where you're just throwing money at the problem and making it more complex.

when you're fighting ak's and rocks do you really need the latest and greatest wizbang gadget to get the job done? surely not.

after a certain point technology yeld a lower and lower advantage / dollar ratio.

it's like when they tried bombing the mountains in Afghanistan with 5k pound bombs.. what a spectacular waste of money that was.
 

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Ace said:
There are many in the armed forces right now who want to go back to the M-14, especially those who are serving Iraq and Afganistan the 223 just doesn't have enough juice past 900 meters. Hence the development of the 6.8 remington. Strangely enough the next service pistol, whatever it is will be back in the good ol .45 caliber, I couldn't agree more with that decision.
If there worried about longer range they can use a .308 rifle round. Not machine gun rounds. Why would they switch to the .45 if they need better range. I doubt you could hit a paper plate at 100 yards with a .45 like you could a 9mm.

Who made this decision?
 

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I would have doubts about 223 effectiveness somewhere around 200 to 300 meters, depending on the load (probably could go a bit farther with a quality hollow point) and the barrel length I'm using. With a 308 I'd be more concerned about how far out I can successfully engage the threat (ie, can I actually make the hits at that range).

I'd rather see the military shift to a more effective round than ball (Federal EFMJ anyone???). If they're still going to be stuck with ball I'm not sure which caliber I'd rather have, 9mm or 45. However, I know that I'd rather have a single stack 1911 in 45acp than a big double stack Beretta in 9mm. But then again, I do like 1911's.

Adam, we confused the issue a little here. We're discussing range in regards to the rifle ammo but switching pistol calibers is more about close range effectiveness. And if you aren't talking about the old, severely worn out, 1911's the military used to have, a good pistol can work at that range if the operator is up for it. I'd be willing to take pot shots at a 100rd target with a good 1911. My old Kimber (Series I) used to average 2" to 2.5" groups with cheap ammo at 25 yrds (off a rest I'll admit). That would give me 8" to 10" groups at 100 yds, say up those by half again to double and I'd still be able to worry a target at range.

Steelheart
 

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well the military can't use any expanding bullets.. that includes EFMJ because of the Hagues convention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_(1899_and_1907)

actually i dont think the US was involved in the original treaties but abide by it anyway, politically they could'nt go against it at this point anyway.

i could be wrong on that last part though.
 

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On one of the shooting shows on the outdoor channel they had that guy thats real fast with pistols and good to, I forget his name but he shot a balloon at 200 yrds with a 1911 held upside down and hit the target I swear i saw him do it.
 

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I saw this show too, I believe - on the show I saw, they put an axe, blade facing forward, in front of the targets, and the targets were two balloons - one on each side of the axe head. The shooter said he would pop both balloons by hitting the axe blade, splitting the bullet, and the split bullet would go through both balloons. Amazing. Below is a link for something similar, but I like the show better because it showed extreme-slow motion replay.....


Enjoy.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
the military is confined to the principles of the Hague convention, and also the geneva convention as well. All arms must have a full metal jacket, so if you cant have expansion, you can have pitch and yaw. Your standard .308, .223, and 7.62X39 were designed to tumble once penetration is made. Qwiks will give you the longhand link to the cliff notes version of what I will give right now but the basic gist of it is this: The very angle of the the cone on a boat tail bullet will determine not only accuracy, but also dictate how a bullet travels through tissue. So the more a bullet tumbles, the greater the wound channel you are going to get. Not as good as a hollow point or ballistic tip, but any port in the storm will do. The Soviets took it one step further when they introduced the AK-74. Their 5.45X39 was elongated, and it had a void inside the bullet so when it hit tissue the filler in the back would compress the front and therefore cause a greater tumble enhancing the rounds effectiveness.
 
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