[bh153dc]

I have found that after a day at the range using .45ACP WWB in my 24/7 PRO, that it is EXTREMELY dirty. It take me about an hour to get the barrel to a point that I am satisfied that all the carbon is gone. I have ben accused as a bit annal by the wife. I even have to take a dentists tool to remove the carbon from the bottom of the ridges. I use brass brushes with Blue Wonder and repeat the process at least 5 times. In my other guns, I have never had this problem using WWB ( 9mm, 357 MAG, etc...). I have not tried WinClean or any of the cleaner burning rounds. Also, I have never been able to get the inside of the barrel to shine, it has always had a very dull metal shine. Any info would be appreciated

 

[Steelheart]

Well, I have found that sometimes WWB is fairly dirty. I suspect that it varies by what powder they used for that lot.

Yes, you might be on the anal side concerning your barrel but that is your choice. I could see it if it was a serious target gun (either long or short) but not a service gun. But then again, I do have a selection of dental tools I use for cleaning actions etc.

WinClean is primarily a reduced lead line of ammo. The bullets are totally enclosed to reduce lead exposure and the primers are free of heavy metals. Something to keep in mind is that the primers may be more difficult to ignite in some guns. And the stuff costs more to boot. But if you want or need to reduce your lead and/or heavy metal (mercury etc) exposure they could be just the ticket.

Steelheart

 

[jwc007]

Yes, WWB is quite dirty as it is typically loaded with surplus W231 Powder.

For deep cleaning of barrels I use Noxon7 Metal Polish/Cleaner and use it only occasionally. Also, I use it on patches on a Nylon Bore Brush, as it will eventually eat Copper/Bronze brushes. It is best removed from the bore with water. Removes Copper and Lead, easily. Clean until patches come clean or only till bore shines, and I recommend the latter. With this, you won't need the Dental Pick anymore.

 

[Mr Ed]

I use wwb at the range it's really not that dirty compaired to other ammo that i have shot plus the price at walmart is pretty good.

 

[Qwiks draw]

Winchester nor any of the ammo makers ever use left over or surplus powders to load ammo. Even if it is generic ammo. This is for liability reasons and also could lead to unsafe practices. Since ammo is very touchy to manufacture as well as the many rules and regulations put on ammo makers to begin with, this practice would mire them in hot water legally or worse. Haphazard use of powders is unsafe as well as negligent. Each type or brand of ammo has specific powders authorized for their use. Chemists and ballisticians have to figure out what will work with each load produced. Proof loads are made up and chamber pressure tested. Every aspect of the physics as well as the chemistry involved is thoroughly scrutinized. In other words, much more, besides regular research and developement goes into each type, batch, or lot of ammo. There is also oversight by in-house as well as outside sources. Powders can and are changed from time to time, but there is a very well thought out and thorough methodology to the way this is all handled. All ammo batches and lost use 1 powder at a time so no egregious errors develop or occur. While some powders do have more residue left behind than others some of this has to do with burn rates or the length of the barrel of the firearm. Some powders burn faster than others as well as slower, depending on the type. Chemical make up, powder granule size, and shape are just some of the factors that go into this. If the companies are not careful catastrophy in many forms can happen. So excess or powders just sitting around are not just pulled out for loading. Won't and doesn't happen. This little chesnut comes up every so often and needs to be laid to rest. Ammo makers do not do things willy nilly and take chances.Also, 231 gunpowder is not the dirtest nor does it leave as much residue as some other powders do such as 2400. Unique is another "dirty" powder, but these all have performed well for the loads they were designed for. A lot of powders have been around longer than the shooters here. One last thing. Pressure curves can peak at various times and can be predicted. Ammo companies take no chances and test prior, during, and after ammo is made.Random sampling is done at steps along the way. Unless someone has evidence to the contrary, ammo makers are not going to take chances anywhere on a whim.

 

[jwc007]

OK........Tell me how you really feel.

On this we will have to agree.......to disagree, respectfully, as my perspective is different.

Seriously though, I think you may have read into my post more than what was actually there. I did not mean to infer that Winchesters loading practices were substandard or less safe. As for surplus powder, that does not mean OLD powder. Surplus is what's left over when all main orders and Cannister sales have been made for a given time period. It is typically Auctioned Powder from Primex, but sometimes production. W231 does not enjoy the sales that it used to command these days and it is cheaper to make than some of the better/newer ball powders. Cleanliness is a matter of perspective, and to me, it's dirtier than it should be. Your experience may differ, depending upon your loads. I used it for a time in my .45 reloads and abandoned it for reasons of excessive muzzle flash for an even dirtier powder at the time, Alliant Red Dot, as I was also using it to feed my 12 guage trap loads. The newer production Red Dot is much improved as far as cleanliness. Another problem W231 has is excessive cold temp sensitivity.

I do like Winchester components for my reloading, such as their primers, brass, and bullets. For Winchester Powders I use WST, W748, and W760. I use other makes of powder I find suitable, as well.

You can usually tell what powder you have in WinUSA Ammo, by it's flash signature or by pulling a bullet and looking at the color of the ball powder, and it looks and behaves as W231, most of the time.

I've also had the experience of picking .40 S&W ammo out of WinUSA bulk packed .45 ACP and .380 ACP, .32 ACP out of WinUSA bulk 9mm, so it does bear some watching! Quality seems to vary from lot to lot. I've bought it and have no trouble buying it, for the Brass and when I've run out of time to Reload. I also like CCI Blazer Brass loadings, but am wondering about the quality of the CCI Blazer brass for reloading. I've used some of the CCI Blazer Brass for .45's without problems so far, but only 2 loadings so far. Winchester Brass has usually been of good quality and I'm hoping it stays that way!

 

[Qwiks draw]

This was not a calling out post to trash anyone, but the implications that others may read into this is. It has been around the net and in magazines that others who are not aware what or how reloading takes place. Much less the process of loading. 231 could be the powder used in the generic ammo. Winchester makes a number of ball powders similar to 231 in many ways. Burn rates and pressures are all different. This has been out on the net for the last few years and in print. Winchester had to do damage control because unknowing or ignorant people believed that Winchester, or the industry as a whole, could just use anything laying around to load. So, this is not to call you out, but to lay the grond work of knowledge for others. Could be Winchester uses 231 for certain types of generic ammo. A call to the company would either confirm this or set the record straight. Even some old vets at reloading have pulled apart Winchester ammo to see what makes it tick and were fooled into believing that it was one or another certain ball powder. The chemistry was different and could have made reusing the powder a catastrophic event for someone. This has happened a few times in the last decade or two to make this relevant. Not knowing for certain what a powder is can have detrimental effects to the user and the gun. One question. What is the source that confirms Winchester uses 231 for loading generic info? I want to add it as a source to my collection. Winchester had to do the damage control about a decade and a half ago because of this exact thing. And people assuming what powder was in the load did blow a few guns up. Winchester got the complaints when it happened. The chain of evidence led the company to find out that people were making assumptions and going from there.Not many did it, but it was enough to get the people concerned and Winchester in hot water. We have a lot of newcomers to the shooting sports. Just trying to set the record straight somewhat and give info on this at the same time. Not all ball powders that Winchester has have been made to the public for reloading. I do not question your expertise.You know 231 from experience. Ammo makers do on occassion change recipes batch for batch or lot to lot. The public is not notified of this. There are however circumstances that needed to be brought to the fore. We are global after all and have to think that way at all times. Visitors from many different parts of the world view this regularly. That is the info they will take away with them.Even batches of the same manufactured powder will take different charactersics somewhat at all levels. Not by much, but it does happen. You've made that point as well. Thanks for your input JWC007. What you have said is enlightning and interesting.

 

[jwc007]

Winchester makes a number of ball powders similar to 231 in many ways. Burn rates and pressures are all different.

One question. What is the source that confirms Winchester uses 231 for loading generic info? I want to add it as a source to my collection.

Not all ball powders that Winchester has have been made to the public for reloading.

Also, please note that Winchester no longer owns it's own powder making facility, having sold their Florida Facility to a Chemical/Industrial Concern, known as Primex. Winchester must actually buy it's powder from them or elsewhere. Also Winchester no longer even markets powder, as they have turned that task over to Hodgdon. The layoffs and downsizing there have certainly taken their toll. The Winchester East Alton Illinois Facility is not that far from where I am, and we used to have some Winchester Employees visit/use our Pistol Club's Range. Not any more! Also, some of the WinchesterUSA 9mm is being made in Israel by IMI. It is distinguished by use of a Brass Jacketed bullet.

Yes, there are non-canister grade (Commercial Loading Only) Ball powders very similar to W231, and this has been by necessity, as W231 will not meet many Military Standards, particularly Flash and Cold temp performance. (Velocity drops incrementally below 32 degrees F) The only good news is that it works very well in warm weather.

There are also a lot of other powders made by Primex that are not available to the shooting public. An example is W296M which is basicly W296 with flash suppressant added. The added Flash Suppressant will change pressure curve somewhat.

My source for W231 use was an article in Shooting Times by Dick Metcalf discussing Ammunition Manufacture. Shooting Industry made reference to it, also.

I have seen pulled powder for sale in Shotgun News but have never understood why anyone would buy it, with the exception of some very frugal/small commercial reloaders, and most of them are disappearing from the ammo market. Just an observation.

 

[Qwiks draw]

So noted and logged.If you go to the Winchester website they do send you over to Hodgdon and there are two other powder companies as well with Hodgdon, all under one roof. Or so it seems.

 

[Violator22]

I use WWB when I need more brass fro reloading, the cleaning aspect afterwards is the pits. Les