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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Maybe it's because we are all so focused on either being scared of the pandemic, or desperately trying to find reasons not to be, that this story somehow got overlooked here. It's possible I missed it, but if it hasn't been discussed, it certainly warrants discussion on a gun forum.

https://www.nytimes.com/article/ahmaud-arbery-timeline.html

https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/newsfeed/2020/05/video-shows-killing-ahmaud-arbery-200510112554110.html

The most disturbing thing (I'm having a hard time believing I typed that considering) is that this happened almost 3 months ago. No charges. If it wasn't for the fact that the video got leaked finally, chances are we would have never heard about it, and these guys would have never been charged.
 

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Glad they caught them just shortly after the video was released.

Of course, you have to hand it to Al Geez Rah to fan flames of racism, as if it has anything to do with the authorities pursuing the murders. How about a follow up story about who withheld the video for so long and the motive for holding it and then releasing it now?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Glad they caught them just shortly after the video was released.

Of course, you have to hand it to Al Geez Rah to fan flames of racism, as if it has anything to do with the authorities pursuing the murders. How about a follow up story about who withheld the video for so long and the motive for holding it and then releasing it now?
Honestly I would argue "fanning the flames of racism" would be gunning down a guy because he fit a description in the utmost of vague ways of a potential burglar and you blocked his path and then drew down on him while in plain Joe clothes and no authority outside of being a "concerned" citizen.
 

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There is a lot of flotsam floating around about issues of whether Arbery was merely an innocent jogger and all that.

But more important to me as an armed citizen is a discussion of the actions of Gregory and Travis McMichael as armed citizens.

Are they role models of the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do?
 
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Honestly I would argue "fanning the flames of racism" would be gunning down a guy because he fit a description in the utmost of vague ways of a potential burglar and you blocked his path and then drew down on him while in plain Joe clothes and no authority outside of being a "concerned" citizen.
Two guys commit a murder. May or may not have anything to do with race.

"The case generated a wave of outrage and raised concerns about persistent racial inequalities in the justice system. "

This is fanning the flames. No substance, just bad feelings that somehow get justified in print.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
There is a lot of flotsam floating around about issues of whether Arbery was merely an innocent jogger and all that.

But more important to me as an armed citizen is a discussion of the actions of Gregory and Travis McMichael as armed citizens.

Are they role models of the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do?
I personally don't see how confronting a "potential" burglar while displaying firearms is anything but the wrong thing to do. If they were uniformed police officers I might excuse this behavior, begrudgingly. However, two white guys jumping out of a pickup truck while wearing their Sunday worst, armed with shotguns and screaming for some black guy to freeze is setting the stage for very bad things to happen. Let's say he was just an innocent guy out for a jog and this occurred, what could possibly be going through his mind? I doubt very much it would be, "well this just must be a case of mistaken identity. Let me clear this up with these good old boys so I can get back to my jog". Again, it's creating a situation that can almost only end badly, or at the very least have a huge chance to. Thus, answering your question I would say role models of what not to do.
 

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Racism might become a factor in the future but both referenced articles use exactly the same language describing the father and son: "Two white men."

Where did the video come from? In the NYT article the May 5 paragraph tells that it came from a criminal defense lawyer by way of a local radio station. For me the real question is, why wasn't it found by the police during their investigation.

Also in the NYT article in the February 23 paragraph, it states "Gregory McMichael told the police that he thought Mr. Arbery looked like a man suspected in several break-ins in the area. The Brunswick News, citing documents obtained through a public records request, reported that there had been just one burglary in the neighborhood since January: the theft of a handgun from an unlocked truck parked outside Travis McMichael’s house." Again, why wasn't this discovered during the police investigation.

The most pressing question that to date appears to not have been asked is, why didn't either the father or son call the police? In recent months on this forum there have been discussions concerning armed citizens shooting suspected law-breakers instead of calling the police. This appears to be another instance of just that.
 

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I could care less about racism or 'hate crime'. These two need to be tied up by the gonads and dragged around behind a pickup truck for a few days. What they did isn't even something you would do to a troublesome animal....they obviously have no feelings or remorse for what they did to a human being, and deserve none in return.
 

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Jogging? Maybe. Running from a crime? Maybe.
Sorry, but like all these stories are hyped up without facts and details so i'll wait for Paul Harvey and the rest of the facts and story.
Good shoot, wrong guy, right guy, bad shoot, why go after an armed guy rather than run away... Way to many unanswered questions and wrong actions going on to say anything but investigate for answers. Not play race card or second guess.
 

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It goes to what we have always said regarding the ability to carry firearms. They are for the purpose of defending our lives and the lives of our loved ones. We are not law enforcement. Today the waters were muddied with the apparent victim spending 6 minutes or so scoping out a construction site. The suggestion, not stated as far as I know, is that he could have been casing the site. I know of no carpenters who leave anything of value on a site however.

They acted beyond their scope and the case is somewhat reminiscent of the convenience store killing. They may try a self defense argument with the victim trying to grab the shotgun, but they themselves made the situation what it was.
 

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Small town hick lawmen that watch out for there own.

Read up on the problems in the area and some of the law enforcement people that have been allowed to be hired in the next town over.

Call it what you will but sooner or later you need to pull your head out of the sand, it’s dark in there.

Just look at the sources that try to find justification in this incident and the people that pander to it.

Ray
 

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It goes to what we have always said regarding the ability to carry firearms. They are for the purpose of defending our lives and the lives of our loved ones. We are not law enforcement. Today the waters were muddied with the apparent victim spending 6 minutes or so scoping out a construction site. The suggestion, not stated as far as I know, is that he could have been casing the site. I know of no carpenters who leave anything of value on a site however.

They acted beyond their scope and the case is somewhat reminiscent of the convenience store killing. They may try a self defense argument with the victim trying to grab the shotgun, but they themselves made the situation what it was.
Sorry that is not going to fly. At best or worse its mutual combatant. i never saw them impede his path. The dead guy engaged. Did he feel the need to engage out of reasonable fear or guilt of a crime?
From what little i saw and know, they were following or chasing a questionable individual . They were employed as LEO at some time in the past so they had some understanding of they were doing. This needs to go to court. And not the court of public opinion.
Just the facts mama.
 

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Why didn't this video get turned over to the police the day of the shooting? If you see something like this happen why would you wait 3 months to turn it over? I believe they're absolutely in the wrong but I don't believe he was just jogging through the neighborhood either. New video now shows this guy in the house under construction looking around, innocent maybe, but none the less he's trespassing. These 2 guys are still wrong in any facet of the mind to me but none the less there are a lot of unanswered questions for me.
 

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Predictably, the lines are already drawn. There's just too much unseen and unknowable to justify all the certainty on both sides.

- One article I've read had that there was history involving the older McMichael as an investigator in a failed prosecution of Arbery. That might explain some predisposition (I did NOT say 'justification') on McMichael's part regarding Arbery.

- Two white guys in a pickup truck chasing down a black jogger and trying to take him into 'custody' with a 'citizen's arrest'. There's just too much history in Georgia regarding that sort of thing for it to not be played into a national issue.

- I can't put away the idea that a 25-year old jogger really ought to be able to evade a couple of bubbas (one of whom is older and the other of whom doesn't really seem to have exercise as a priority in his lifestyle), instead of running toward them to try to wrestle a gun away from them. Arbery certainly seemed to have the right to travel where he did, but we can all agree that sometimes it's better to avoid danger, even if you have a right to go toward it and that doing otherwise casts some question as to either one's judgement or one's intentions.

- It certainly shouldn't have taken months to make an arrest out of this. Maybe the decision not to was tainted, maybe it was a rational decision that involved some other facts that haven't been leaked. The investigation should be interesting to follow.

- The short snippet of video is too little, too devoid of context, too charged to be of much use in doing much more than stirring outrage -- so the editing and leaking achieved its purpose.

- There were so many better ways for the McMichaels to handle this if they truly believed Arbery was a burglar; taking it into their own hands was probably about the worst option available to them. 'Heat of the chase' decisions frequently turn out bad.

Nope -- water here's too muddy to get in and swim around in. I will just sit on the bank and watch let this flow on past.
 

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Regarding the delay to investigate further and bring charges, the FBI has been asked to look into this aspect. Hate crime has already been ruled out, but I wonder if a thorough history of the individuals has been conducted.
 

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The NYT won't let me read without creating an account (nope) and I'm not even giving those liars at AlJazeera the dignity of a click.

I also can't seem to find the video except as part of a news show, interspersed with talking heads and commentary. Anyone have a link to the raw video?

From what I've read and seen, though, my gut says these two were wrong. Even if they saw him go into a garage he shouldn't have or something, they should have called the police at most. Chasing him down with guns was really, really stupid.
 

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Sorry that is not going to fly. At best or worse its mutual combatant. i never saw them impede his path. The dead guy engaged. Did he feel the need to engage out of reasonable fear or guilt of a crime?
From what little i saw and know, they were following or chasing a questionable individual . They were employed as LEO at some time in the past so they had some understanding of they were doing. This needs to go to court. And not the court of public opinion.
Just the facts mama.
Being "former LEO" doesn't necessarily mean he had any understanding whatsoever, and certainly doesn't mean he had any more legal powers. He was a private citizen just like you and me.

I'm going to put the worst spin on Arbery for the sake of argument. Let's say any of us saw a man we knew to have been a moderately bad character in the past down the street peeking into a house under construction (which, technically speaking, is illegal trespass but we know it has less real impact than speeding or jaywalking) and in a few minutes leave that house and continue down the street.

Under which law does that mean we--private citizens--need to round a couple of other men, get our guns, get into two or three pick-up trucks, and pursue that guy? That stretches the Georgia "Citizen Arrest" statute to a really stupid limit. That's like saying we ought to give chase on the highway when someone speeds past us, force them to the curb, and hold them for the police.

What were they--being most charitable to them--intending to do? Gregory and Travis McMichael said they intended to detain and question him. The only crime they saw (looking at the Georgia "Citizen Arrest" statute) was trespass. Is that the tactic private citizens like you and me should be taking? At least three guys in at least two pickup trucks, fully armed? Detaining and questioning suspects with guns in hand? Are we supposed to be doing that?

I have seen disturbing posts in various places to the effect that when Arbery apparently charged Gregory McMichael and began struggling for the shotgun, the moral high ground shifted to McMichael and turned the incident into "self defense" for McMichael. Apparently their presumption is that McMichael was fully righteous in having stopped Arbery and attempting to arrest him, and that all the factors and tactics of the arrest were fully correct. But was that the case? Do we agree that another private citizen can lawfully "detain and question" any of us on the street? And if we don't agree that's lawful, where does it then shift the self-defense argument?

Then there is a debate about whether Arbery should have felt "threatened" when confronted by armed men in pickup trucks. There's no point debating whether Arbery's response was correct, the tactical point is: How should we expect a man to feel when confronted with armed force?

Yes, "armed force," because "force" in all the states I know about is always in play when someone is detained against his will. And they were displaying their firearms. I've been surrounded on the street by armed men a couple of times, and in both cases I felt my life was being threatened. Is anyone here really going to argue otherwise? With a straight face?

Should we, if we are the armed men attempting to "detain and question" another man on the street reasonably expect that he's not going to feel threatened and react to the threat? He may do any number of things--many of them stupid--but he is going to react to the threat in some way.

If they really thought he was a bad guy, what did they have in mind to do? What was their strategy? Shock and awe? Does that really make sense to anyone here?

Edit: This is what the Georgia law on "citizen's arrest" actually says:

O.C.G.A. 17-4-60 (2010)
17-4-60. Grounds for arrest

A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
You can't possibly expect a black man in the burbs of Georgia being chased down by armed Bubba's to feel any less threatened than a white man having the same thing happen to him in the city streets of Baltimore by guys that fit the Deebo, Nug Nug and Pooky descriptions. It's a pants crapping moment at best, fight or flight will most certainly kick in (and rightfully so), and from the sounds of it he had already tried flight but was eventually rounded up and left with only fight as an alternative for such a potentially life threatening scenario. Honestly unless they had verifiably witnessed him doing serious harm to someone, this was absolutely uncalled for and there just isn't any conceivable way to justify their actions considering the circumstances. Furthermore I know a lot of people are mad this is being made into a race issue. Whether it was or wasn't to the guys in the pickups is largely speculative. I don't know their particular history. I do know the history of the area though, and the history of black men being chased down by white men in this country. So while race might or might not have been in the minds of the chasers, I can guarantee you it was on the mind of the guy getting chased in his last few minutes of life.
 

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You can't possibly expect a black man in the burbs of Georgia being chased down by armed Bubba's to feel any less threatened than a white man having the same thing happen to him in the city streets of Baltimore by guys that fit the Deebo, Nug Nug and Pooky descriptions. It's a pants crapping moment at best, fight or flight will most certainly kick in (and rightfully so), and from the sounds of it he had already tried flight but was eventually rounded up and left with only fight as an alternative for such a potentially life threatening scenario. Honestly unless they had verifiably witnessed him doing serious harm to someone, this was absolutely uncalled for and there just isn't any conceivable way to justify their actions considering the circumstances. Furthermore I know a lot of people are mad this is being made into a race issue. Whether it was or wasn't to the guys in the pickups is largely speculative. I don't know their particular history. I do know the history of the area though, and the history of black men being chased down by white men in this country. So while race might or might not have been in the minds of the chasers, I can guarantee you it was on the mind of the guy getting chased in his last few minutes of life.
I'm just wondering how you plan on standing by that guarantee. I mean, what are you guaranteeing? It seems more of a personal statement to me.

If I was jogging (which I do frequently) in a neighborhood and two armed men approach me, I am certain that race will not even enter my mind. Interesting how race always comes to mind for some people with such preconceived biases. My bias would be to the threat of being confronted by armed people, not their heritage, national origin, speech, nor how low their pants hang.
 
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