[pegasus]

Hopefully this won't get thrown into the political area, it's news coverage of an important world news story.

Remember when the Royal Navy was a force to be respected? Remember the history of the Royal Navy in WW one, WW 2? Remember when the Falklands were invaded and Great Britain not only sent the Royal Navy, but at least one member of the Royal family to participate in it?

This is the state of the Royal Navy today.

https://www.whio.com/news/world/nav...art-iran-ship-seizure/Xr0FHP1hsvBKYvYC3jbJsI/

UK navy heard in audio trying to thwart Iran ship seizure

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates – In an audio recording released Sunday, a British naval officer can be heard saying the transit of a British-flagged vessel through the Strait of Hormuz must not be impaired under international law as Iranian naval forces warn the vessel to change course.

The audio, released by maritime security risk firm Dryad Global, shows how the British navy was unable to prevent the ship's seizure by Iranian Revolutionary Guard forces on Friday. The seizure has prompted condemnation from the U.K. and its European allies as they continue to call for a de-escalation of tensions in the critical waterway.

In the recording, an Iranian officer can be heard telling the Stena Impero to change course, saying: "You obey, you will be safe."


"Alter your course to 360 degrees immediately, over," the officer says, before saying the ship is wanted for security reasons.

A British naval officer from the HMS Montrose frigate patrolling the area around the Strait of Hormuz is heard telling the Stena Impero, which had a crew of 23 on board, that its passage must be allowed.

"Sir, I reiterate that as you are conducting transit passage in a recognized international strait, under international law your passage must not be impaired, intruded, obstructed or hampered," the British officer says.

The British officer then tells an Iranian patrol boat: "Please confirm that you are not intending to violate international law by unlawfully attempting to board the MV Stena."

The problem with the warning from the British frigate is the frigate couldn't actually interfere with the taking of the ship. If you're going to tell someone not to do something, you need to be able to do something if they ignore you. That would be like me telling a criminal, "Please don't rob or assault me, that's illegal."

Britain's Defense Secretary Tobias Ellwood reiterated calls for de-escalation on Sunday in an interview with Sky News.

"Well, firstly we need to try and de-escalate this. There has been a ratcheting up of tensions in the Middle East," he said, before adding that Friday's seizure is "a hostile act" by Iran.

As Gibbs on the NCIS tv show would say, "Ya think?" The Iranians have only been warning the British they were going to do exactly this for about a week or two now, and already had made one attempt. That attempt was only twarted because an armed British ship near the tanker scared them off.

This story has parallels to CCW. Someone here who read the story of the Iranian ship being scared by an armed British vessel sarcastically said to me, "So if you're armed, or someone who is with you is armed, you don't get kidnapped or robbed? Who knew? lol

[Ellwood also noted that the British Royal Navy "is too small to manage our interests across the globe" and that this would be an issue for the next prime minister to recognize.

 

[kschilk]

Until all NATO nations converge on the area with "if they float it, we sink it and if they fly it, we shoot it down" rules of engagement, Iran will keep pulling crap like this. They need to be grounded and landlocked entirely or they're just gonna' keep on peein' in the pool.

 

[Peacemakr40]

This sounds like the UK is doing everything they can to not start a war when a war would clearly resolve this issue. Until Iran is seriously slapped down during the commision of such actions, they will keep doing it. I still maintain that pulling the Mighty Mo out of mothballs and parking it off the coast of Iran at the straits would send a very powerful message.

 

[Desperado]

A former United States President used to say something like this about foreign "hemorrhoids":

"If you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat".

Time to turn up the thermostat.

And about our NATO allies: They are almost worthless. This article shows just how bad the Royal Navy has become. Now you have to think just how bad the other NATO forces are.

 

[grumpyoldcomputerguy]

I will try to keep politics out of this and I apologize in advance if it seems political. I agree with everything said so far. My kids are in their late 30's and early 40's. I have talked to them about the events surrounding the fall of the Shah of Iran, the U.S. hostage crisis, former president Carter's "nice guy" administration, oil embargo, etc. I told them, the day President Reagan took office, the Ayatollah released the hostages. He KNEW that Reagan would respond with extreme prejudice. I sound like my ancestors I suppose, but history is lost on the current generation.
Armed to the teeth, willing to respond with extreme prejudice, Standing up for what is right and true; these are the things dictators and terrorists understand and respect. As do the common citizens of the world.

 

[cassrh]

A big part of me yells "blow them out of the water" and other dribble. But in reality, the world has stood by and allowed iran to become a powerful force that can easily close off the strait, and wreck havoc on anything in the gulf. Their mobile shore to ship missiles alone could seal off the gulf. Until the USA or its allies are physically attacked, and we're asked for help, we need to let the affected countries deal with the problem. If we say we're not looking for a war, then don't kick the nest. My biggest fear is a repeat of previous "wars" where we commit forces, and hamstring ourselves by worrying about collateral loss of life, or when a possible victory is in sight, we go to the negotiating table long enough for the enemy to regroup. If you go in, go in TO WIN, and totally destroy the enemy - we don't have the balls to do that anymore.

 

[Jake3501]

World history has continuely reminded us that appeasement has never worked. I think Hungary and Poland both realize it. France? Well, we know where they always stand, Italy is showing some gumption regarding immigration. Germany became a gumptionless country after being freed from the USSR....would they even try to defend themselves to keep that from happening again?

In the European countries that have welcomed middle east and North African refugees, now have a large home base of those people who would yell about attacking their countries of origin as they still have family there. We have the same problem in many of our states today. No one should be allowed to immigrate from a Muslim country unless they denounce publicly "Sharia Law!"

 

[Jake3501]

A big part of me yells "blow them out of the water" and other dribble. But in reality, the world has stood by and allowed iran to become a powerful force that can easily close off the strait, and wreck havoc on anything in the gulf. Their mobile shore to ship missiles alone could seal off the gulf. Until the USA or its allies are physically attacked, and we're asked for help, we need to let the affected countries deal with the problem. If we say we're not looking for a war, then don't kick the nest. My biggest fear is a repeat of previous "wars" where we commit forces, and hamstring ourselves by worrying about collateral loss of life, or when a possible victory is in sight, we go to the negotiating table long enough for the enemy to regroup. If you go in, go in TO WIN, and totally destroy the enemy - we don't have the balls to do that anymore.

As the USA has become a net oil exporter, we have somewhat less concern about the Persian Gulf, heck....closing the straight might even help give us a huuuuuuge export market for all the currently cheap natural gas we keep flaring. Natural Gas is now at $2.25 per M BTUs. Even adjusted for inflation, Natural Gas is now the cheapest is has been in my 71 years on this planet.

Trump does not want a war, he wants a deal.

 

[NotSo]

Calls to mind Neville Chamberlain and his agreement to appease Hitler in 1938. Look what that got him.

 

[230JHP]

(snip) No one should be allowed to immigrate from a Muslim country unless they denounce publicly "Sharia Law!"

The problem is, that would get them a death sentence from the, 'religion of peace'.

 

[GreenWolf70]

As I understand it the Brit ship was 10 minutes late getting on station to escort the merchant ship through, and the merchant ship left without an escort. Sounds like both were wrong. The other strange thing I am hearing is that there were no Brit nationals on board, makes me wonder if this was an inside job.

Barbary pirates is what comes to mind...and we know how that ended.

The 500 troops moving to our air base in Saudi Arabia are all Air Force, which I hope means an Air Wing is being moved there to provide air cover and surveillance, could be more drones though. Either way should give more eyes on enemy movements and a physical backup to those radio commands.

Back when Trump was elected, I thought he would have to hit someone really, really hard to make "talk quietly and carry a big stick" effective since Obama had lost all credibility to do anything on the world stage, except posture. At the time I thought it would be either North Korea or Iran. It is beginning to look like Iran has drawn the short straw. I think it was good thinking to let the world know that Iran pushed too hard against the US, but that President Trump would not take big stick action on lost of material. Iran immediately stopped pushing the US, but now pushes against our allies. I think this goes on until there is loss of life, then that big stick gets swung. I am just hoping this will be a coordinated effort with Israel, and the Arab countries that oppose Iran, to take out all the Iranian allies in one fell swoop. Hopefully, with the regime weakened the Persian people will make the change themselves.

In 1982 an Egyptian Colonel told me "to never turn your back on a Persian". That same year a Lebanese Colonel told me that if you could clear away the fog of war, at the root of every Arab problem you would find a Persian. Peace in the Middle East might actually be possible, if the Iranians were taken out of the picture.

 

[texastaurusguy]

Oh how the mighty have fallen.

 

[cassrh]

Watch Turkey closely on this problem - they're soon to be as big an enemy as Iran. They hate us just as much.

 

[dlr110]

I thought this might be a good place and time to post this. You've heard of the "Roberts Rules of Order" for parlimentary procedures, well here are the "The Roberts Ten Rules of War" from a yet unpublished book of mine. Now this is for all out war and not individual incidents that must be dealt with immediately.

“The Roberts Ten Rules of War”

Rule One: Negotiate

Rule Two: Negotiate

Rule Three: When negotiations with a foreign aggressor have failed and an armed conflict is the only recourse, the Commander-in-Chief shall advise or obtain from Congress their concurrence to use military force and a Declaration of War.

Rule Four: With Congressional approval, it’s now their obligation to provide adequate funding for manpower, training, equipment, execution of the plan and follow up operations.

Rule Five: Military leaders are given their orders, time tables and objectives, resulting in absolutely nothing less than total victory and the unconditional surrender of the opposing force. Any considerations/conditions demanded by an enemy force will gain you nothing and only serve the opposing forces.

Rule Six: The government and the military make all preparations without revealing or “telegraphing” any dates, places or plans to the public. That’s like making a CNN broadcast to the opposing force as to what, when, where and how we intend to attack. Stupid.

Rule Seven: When the execution order is issued, our military forces shall engage with full force, inflicting total destruction. Certain locations like hospitals, schools, churches, or historic buildings, are not targeted unless they are being utilized by enemy military forces.

Rule Eight: The very nature of a military force is, train to kill and destroy, not to be referees or a police force. Make no mistake about it there will be civilian casualties, there’s no way to avoid it. War is death and destruction, it’s ugly, it’s lethal, and it’s not always precise. If you don’t have the stomach for it, forget the rules, go home, and don’t declare war in the first place.

Rule Nine: Don’t try to run the war from Washington. You’ve given the Commanders their orders and objectives, now stay out of the way and support them. Battlefield commanders should make rules of Engagement and tactical decisions, not Washington politicians watching CNN. The commanders know more about conducting military operations than a 1[SUP]st[/SUP] term or career politician in the White House or the U.S. Congress.

Rule Ten: Once the military has devastated the enemy and subdued the civilian population don’t declare victory and walk away. That’s the perfect time for the next dictator or unfriendly force to come in and fill the void and you’ll be right back where you started (remember Iraq). Now is the time to invest in rebuilding THEIR country; THEIR government; THEIR infrastructure; and THEIR economy. It’s a long term process, not an overnight fix. It worked in Japan, because General MacArthur understood the process and was the right man at the time.

“It’s fatal to enter any war without the will to win.” “The soldier above all others prays for peace, for it’s the soldier who must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war.” Gen Douglas MacArthur

 

[GreenWolf70]

Erdogan in Turkey is Muslim Brotherhood. If Turkey pulls out of NATO, then look for NATO countries to send their Turkish guest workers home. That will pretty much end Erdogan.

Watch the Saudi Crown Prince, he has been ruthlessly eliminating Muslim Brotherhood where ever he has found them. He was the head of Saudi Intelligence when Benghazi went down and has been on a tear against MB ever since. He was behind the toppling of the MB in Egypt. He sees two threats to Saudi Arabia, MB and Iran. He was behind the coup attempt against Erdogan the first time. That second coup was a fake to give Erdogan an excuse to purge the military once again. The incident against Khashoggi was an abduction, not a murder. If murder had been their intent, they would not have done it in the embassy. No, that guy is in a hole somewhere being interrogated. Khashoggi was a MB Courier to Erdogan. MB has had links to Iran lately and that may have been why they abducted him. The Saudi Crown Prince is our strongest ally in the Arab world and sees the MB and Iranian threats to be great enough to bring Israel into their planning. If Iran gets nukes, look for the Saudi Crown Prince to push for American nukes to be positioned in Saudi Arabia. I think the Saudis are using the Yemen conflict to bloody their military and prepare them for more. If America strikes Iran, I expect the Saudis will participate.

In case no one has noticed, the Saudis went from a laughing stock military and intelligence organization, to one of the best in both areas in the Middle East. There is an air of seriousness with them now that was not there before.

 

[CWB]

This sounds like the UK is doing everything they can to not start a war when a war would clearly resolve this issue. Until Iran is seriously slapped down during the commision of such actions, they will keep doing it. I still maintain that pulling the Mighty Mo out of mothballs and parking it off the coast of Iran at the straits would send a very powerful message.

That would almost certainly get the "Mighty Mo" sunk and several hundreds of our sailors killed. You might as well re-christen her the "Sitting Duck" against modern forces.

 

[CWB]

As I understand it the Brit ship was 10 minutes late getting on station to escort the merchant ship through, and the merchant ship left without an escort. Sounds like both were wrong. The other strange thing I am hearing is that there were no Brit nationals on board, makes me wonder if this was an inside job.

Barbary pirates is what comes to mind...and we know how that ended.

The 500 troops moving to our air base in Saudi Arabia are all Air Force, which I hope means an Air Wing is being moved there to provide air cover and surveillance, could be more drones though. Either way should give more eyes on enemy movements and a physical backup to those radio commands.

*Snip*

No need for an air wing in Saudi Arabia. We have an air wing within 40 miles of me that could calm them down at any time. The B2 wing at Whiteman...half our total number of B2 bombers.

 

[Aggie]

The rot set in toward the end of WW2 with the U.K. and the RN.

The government is indecisive with a incapable military. They are paying the price for failing as the U.K. is becoming a Third World Country.

 

[garyh]

We don't want an other Korean situation.

 

[cassrh]

I thought this might be a good place and time to post this. You've heard of the "Roberts Rules of Order" for parlimentary procedures, well here are the "The Roberts Ten Rules of War" from a yet unpublished book of mine. Now this is for all out war and not individual incidents that must be dealt with immediately.

“The Roberts Ten Rules of War”

Rule One: Negotiate

Rule Two: Negotiate

Rule Three: When negotiations with a foreign aggressor have failed and an armed conflict is the only recourse, the Commander-in-Chief shall advise or obtain from Congress their concurrence to use military force and a Declaration of War.

Rule Four: With Congressional approval, it’s now their obligation to provide adequate funding for manpower, training, equipment, execution of the plan and follow up operations.

Rule Five: Military leaders are given their orders, time tables and objectives, resulting in absolutely nothing less than total victory and the unconditional surrender of the opposing force. Any considerations/conditions demanded by an enemy force will gain you nothing and only serve the opposing forces.

Rule Six: The government and the military make all preparations without revealing or “telegraphing” any dates, places or plans to the public. That’s like making a CNN broadcast to the opposing force as to what, when, where and how we intend to attack. Stupid.

Rule Seven: When the execution order is issued, our military forces shall engage with full force, inflicting total destruction. Certain locations like hospitals, schools, churches, or historic buildings, are not targeted unless they are being utilized by enemy military forces.

Rule Eight: The very nature of a military force is, train to kill and destroy, not to be referees or a police force. Make no mistake about it there will be civilian casualties, there’s no way to avoid it. War is death and destruction, it’s ugly, it’s lethal, and it’s not always precise. If you don’t have the stomach for it, forget the rules, go home, and don’t declare war in the first place.

Rule Nine: Don’t try to run the war from Washington. You’ve given the Commanders their orders and objectives, now stay out of the way and support them. Battlefield commanders should make rules of Engagement and tactical decisions, not Washington politicians watching CNN. The commanders know more about conducting military operations than a 1[SUP]st[/SUP] term or career politician in the White House or the U.S. Congress.

Rule Ten: Once the military has devastated the enemy and subdued the civilian population don’t declare victory and walk away. That’s the perfect time for the next dictator or unfriendly force to come in and fill the void and you’ll be right back where you started (remember Iraq). Now is the time to invest in rebuilding THEIR country; THEIR government; THEIR infrastructure; and THEIR economy. It’s a long term process, not an overnight fix. It worked in Japan, because General MacArthur understood the process and was the right man at the time.

“It’s fatal to enter any war without the will to win.” “The soldier above all others prays for peace, for it’s the soldier who must suffer and bear the deepest wounds and scars of war.” Gen Douglas MacArthur

Agree, to some extent, with all but #10. In no way should American dollars be used to rebuild a friggin thing in that cesspool. They can do it themselves - maybe their allllah can help.