Taurus Firearm Forum banner
1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
590 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have read and berrys bullets states to use cast bullet data for plated. Can we also use plated bullet data for cast? Was looking through my manuals ( which is only two atm ) and could not find a cast option for my powders. Curently have titegroup, cfe pistol, hp-38 and unique at my disposal any input is appreciated.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,229 Posts
The term "cast" is another term for "lead". Are you thinking it simply needs to say the word "cast"? I use Modern Reloading (2nd edition) by Richard Lee. For instance, he uses the term "115 Grain Lead Bullet" in the back of the book recipe section.

And to answer your question, yes you can in the absence of data.

What size Berry's bullets do you have?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
969 Posts
You can also use Start Charges for jacketed bullets and work up. Maybe to the mid-range of the data. No real need to push them hard since they don't expand. With the Berry's HHP at 147 grs., it didn't hold up to their velocity claim of 1075 FPS, but they work very well at around 1000 FPS.

The only data that I know of specifically for selected plated bullets comes from Western Powder Co. You can't use their data, but ZIP is very similar to W231/HP38 and CFE Pistol is close to Silhouette, just to give you something for comparison.

For cast bullets, you should be able to find cast data for them. What powders are you planning to use?;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: olfarhors

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,964 Posts
I've used only plated in my 9mm 124 gr and use jacketed loads and limit my speed to 1100 fps.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Czechbikr

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,356 Posts
Unless you're using a very load sensitive powder, you can interchange the term plated with cast or hard cast. Berry's even indicates this on their page (I was just looking up load data using .452 250gr berry's RNFP plated for the Henry 30 minutes ago)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
590 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
You can also use Start Charges for jacketed bullets and work up. Maybe to the mid-range of the data. No real need to push them hard since they don't expand. With the Berry's HHP at 147 grs., it didn't hold up to their velocity claim of 1075 FPS, but they work very well at around 1000 FPS.

The only data that I know of specifically for selected plated bullets comes from Western Powder Co. You can't use their data, but ZIP is very similar to W231/HP38 and CFE Pistol is close to Silhouette, just to give you something for comparison.

For cast bullets, you should be able to find cast data for them. What powders are you planning to use?<img src="http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/images/smilies/gr_wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />

Currently trying cfe nd hp-38
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
112 Posts
Most plated bullet manufacturers now say to use jacketed load data. But most plated bullets, with the exception of Berry’s, have a diameter the same as jacketed bullets. So I would be careful about using plated bullet data for cast lead.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
969 Posts
Currently trying cfe nd hp-38
For target type loads I'd use the HP38. Save the CFE Pistol for JHP loads.

The problem with all of this is that plated bullet makers set on guideline, and then changed it. In the case of mentioning Western's data where their main concern is a Max Pressure limit, that's the only way to know for sure. Since plated bullets can be different, the data really only applies to the one they used in the data. Begin with a Start Charge and work up. Don't worry about reaching the Max Charge. You will quite possibly find the best accuracy before you reach the Max Charge. With CFE Pistol, it will probably be higher velocity than you need, anyway.;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: william and DA-Auto

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,813 Posts
If you have an Android phone go to the Play Store and install Reloading Assistant (its free). It has two programs within that app, a calculator for figuring out the cost of your reloads, and a database of all published load data. So go to Data Viewer, click the caliber tab, go all the way to the end for 9mm parabellum and it will give you all the load data published for the 9mm. There are plenty of listings for 124 grain plated Berrys, but all are for Accurate or Ramshot powders. but there is plenty of 124 grain bullet data for Titegroup, Unique, and Win 231/HP-38 (same powder, different labels).

BTW, never trust the data from a single source, always try to have two or more sources that match.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
493 Posts
57K is correct

What I do is use a plated data lets say a starting load of 4.0gr and max 5.0gr
I start at 3.6gr and 3.8gr to 4,0gr and so on , you can watch the accuracy get better and level off before you hit the max charge ( as a rule of thumb )
I use HP-38 for low to mid range charges and CFE pistol for mid to hi range charges
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
969 Posts
The thing about data is that not everyone shows the pressure generated for the loads. When using data that isn't pressure rated, comparing multiple sources is advisable. But for me, pressure rated data is always best. In the long term it will help you better understand what the various powders do, based on the same bullet. One reason I always recommend having a Lyman manual.

After years of following them and discussing things with close observers, I'm pretty sure that the Western lab utilizes test barrels for 9mm that are on the minimum as far as SAAMI spec. They are not the only ones to do so. I watched Vhita Vuori do the same over time and eventually drop the pressure ratings once their loads got down below 33,000 PSI/CIP. They started out with loads at 36,300 PSI/CIP which is only 200 PSI lower than 9mm NATO. I still have the older data and have used it quite a lot with absolutely no issue. If I had my way, there would only be one single spec for 9mm ammo, and it would be 9mm NATO to put an end to the confusion. 9mm +P is really nothing more than equivalent pressure to the former pressure rating of 35,700 CUP that when tested in PSI is very close to the SAAMI limit for +P at 38,500 PSI. I have older data for that as well. It was SAAMI's decision to lower the standard pressure ratings to 33,000 CUP/35,000 PSI and introduce the +P designation for 9 x 19mm ammo.

In the case of Western data, I compare it directly to Lyman's pressure rated data. I also compare my chrono'd velocities to Lyman's and they're pretty honest. Just keep in mind that they test with a 4" barrel, so your loads may be faster or slower depending on the barrel length of the pistol you chrono with.;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,964 Posts
57K, correct me if I'm wrong but can't you have higher pressure with plated over cast since it has more drag/resistance in the barrel?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
969 Posts
57K is correct

What I do is use a plated data lets say a starting load of 4.0gr and max 5.0gr
I start at 3.6gr and 3.8gr to 4,0gr and so on , you can watch the accuracy get better and level off before you hit the max charge ( as a rule of thumb )
I use HP-38 for low to mid range charges and CFE pistol for mid to hi range charges
I do the same except my similar powders are Western. I have, though, used plenty of W231/HP38 which Ramshot ZIP is very similar to while CFE Pistol was made, IMO, to serve a similar role as Silhouette that was originally sold as Winchester WAP. Probably the greatest mistake Winchester Powder Co. ever made was dropping WAP which allowed Western to acquire the rights to sell it as Ramshot Silhouette. Both powders are flash suppressed which makes them even better choices for defense loads.

Haven't used ZIP in a while and used W231 and WST for lighter .45 ACP loads and 9mm target loads. Now I'm using A #2 and have bee very pleased with the 9mm loads at around 130 PF. In .45 ACP I wanted to see if I could avoid using two separate powders with one single powder. In my testing, both W231 and Ramshot ZIP do better for 9mm target loads than .45 ACP target loads. They're almost duplicates, but with ZIP burning a bit cleaner. Something I really like about A #2 is that it is not powder position sensitive: meaning that results can still be very good with lower charge-weights in cases like .38 Sp.;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
969 Posts
57K, correct me if I'm wrong but can't you have higher pressure with plated over cast since it has more drag/resistance in the barrel?
Moken, that is an excellent question that I'm not sure everyone would agree on. In Westerns pressure rated data, you may find them listing higher charges for plated than even jacketed. There is also the manufacturer's guideline to follow. As an example, RMR says not to exceed 1400 FPS which I'm adhering to with the 125 and 158 gr. PHPs for .357. But, as a general guideline, the pressure limit is the same regardless of bullet type. 35,000 PSI/33,000 CUP for standard pressure 9 x 19mm. With cast lead you typically get there faster with lower charges than for jacketed. And everything changes by jacket mat'l and the length of the bullet shank, because as you mention, these are factors in friction between the bullet and the bore.;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: olfarhors and MoKen

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,964 Posts
Great info 57K. One thing I would like to see is better hardness info on plated. The usual response is swaged core. I would think obturation could be vastly different with hardness which would have effect on drag as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
37,060 Posts
I've used only plated in my 9mm 124 gr and use jacketed loads and limit my speed to 1100 fps.

typically (like always) I begin a plated new projectile by loading it at the correct loading data for a jacketed bullet mid charge, in other words half way between starting load and max load.
never had a problem, then I normally like this load but will usually work it up a tad higher depending on weapon function with the load.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MoKen

·
Registered
Joined
·
969 Posts
Great info 57K. One thing I would like to see is better hardness info on plated. The usual response is swaged core. I would think obturation could be vastly different with hardness which would have effect on drag as well.
Moken, the softer the bullet, the easier it will obturate. One thing I have done regarding cast and poly-coated, is to load them exactly the same where the 2 different bullets were cast with the same exact bullet mold. Opinions may differ here, but I've only seen minimal velocity loss for the poly-coated. It's essentially moot.

With plated, there are variables within the molten copper alloy, but evidently it's not a lot and plated bulletmakers tend to emphasize thickness more. I've never seen any data for BHN values for plated bullets. I mentioned RMR's recommendation of velocity Max at 1400 FPS, and that might retard velocity below what someone is looking for, with say, a 125 gr. bullet, but not so much with a 140 (if you can find one) and little to none for 158s. Since none of these bullets are designed for expansion, that's also pretty moot. Can't remember if Berry's is making a Hybrid Hollow-point for .38/.357, but if they do, it will have a Max Velocity rating, and I would do some expansion testing before I reached that velocity rating. It could be too high as I found with the 147 gr. 9mm HHP.

Even before "Bonding" became the catch phrase it is today, SPEER has more experience with this than anyone. And going back before the Gold Dots when their hollowpoints were labeled "Hot Core" or "Uni-Core." Technically, their HP bullets are plated with the jacket alloy applied in a molten state. What they do to the core that is typically swaged, I don't know all of the details of the SPEER process. But what I've determined from the info I have read, the core and jacket have a relationship that allows the 2 metals to fuse better. The only time I've ever seen a Gold Dot jacket trying to separate from the core was in a You Tube vid where the bullet was being pushed well beyond its design limits. Might have been TNoutdoors9 and I believe it was the 9mm 115 gr. Gold Dot in excess of 1400 FPS. Not something many of us will ever see, and something the ammo-maker should have been aware of. If you want a load like that, the 115 gr. XTP is much more capable.;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: MoKen and olfarhors

·
Registered
Joined
·
37,060 Posts
I load and shoot aout 99% plated projectiels, the only thing that i shoot or load other than plated is self defense rounds which are very few, most are to function test a new weapon to make sure they digest the rounds.
the only ones that I am concerned with for pushing them to fast is the 38 Super (if loading 115) or the 10 MM if shooting 150 grain.
but as a I typically load a stout but not max load for practice this really isn;t a concern to me.
again I do push them at a decent velocity mostly cause If i want to shoot a 9 MM then i will take one to the range, if i want to shoot a 380 then i will take one to the range, if shooting a 38 Super, 45 or 10 Mm I want it to approxiamte the true power of those calibers.
I think most everyone rates their plated at 1200-to 1400 FPS as safe?
the separation issue isn't anything new as 57-K states, remember the old Speer keith style projectile that was half jacketed, I loved this hollow point and it would seperate from the jacket --BUT--if it was under loaded not If it was pushed to much--leaving a nasty lil copper half jacket in the bore of your gun.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 57K and GreenWolf70
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top