[Robby]

I am the proud owner of over 1000 rds of 115 gr Remington UMC 9mm rounds, plus I have shot almost 500 more.
However, I have heard that I can help my shooting low somewhat, by using a heavier grained bullet. Yeah I read most of the threads here on that.
What I am finding online wise is various non +p rounds in 124 and 147 gr rounds. The 147 showing a 900 plus FPS, and the 124 somewhere in 1100 FPS.
I am going to take my Concealed carry course next Tuesday, and was debating whether or not to buy 100 rd of 147 FMJ to use in the training, if I use my PT111 to keep my shots higher during the training.

Of course I have another option, I can use my 357/38 Rossi 461, and use 130 or 158 gr rounds for this class. Would I be best to take the training with 38 rds, or 357??

Which one would you excellent shooters suggest? You guys that shoot like me, just keep quiet!!!

He advises against my shooting THE JUDGE, or any 45 without asking him in advance. So I guess I will leave it at home. Well I guess he is right (that thing is a hard to hide CC).

 

[paulrabe78]

I would ask the instructor what kind of proficiency test he gives. To get my ccw he had us shoot 5 rounds at 5 yards, 10 rounds at 5 yards and only five round per magazine so 1 reload. Then we did 5 rounds at 7 yard and 10 rounds at 7 seven yards with one reload. I used my 24/7. With the reload all I had to do was slap a new mag in, already loaded, and start shooting again. Oh and each of the 4 test shootings had to be done in one minute. There were a few that brought their revolvers and they one had a little trouble with the reload and getting the 10 shots in a minute.

If you are comfortable with the revolver and can reload fairly quickly go for that. It's all a matter of preference. I can imagine anyone not hitting the target at those ranges in a non stressful environment.

Good luck on your ccw!!!

 

[Robby]

Well lets see! I did not get the timing but it is a 20 shot qualification!

Here is how it was explained in http://www.kc3.com/kyccw/license_process.htm

Next you will fire at a standard police training silhouette target (type B-21) at a range of seven yards. You must place eleven (11) out of twenty (20) shots within the outline of the silhouette to qualify for your license. The instructor may conduct as many practice rounds as necessary, until he or she feels comfortable with the students' skill level and ability to pass. Only one retest is permitted. After the shooting test you will clean your gun and it will be inspected by the instructor for the purpose of demonstrating that you can maintain your weapon.

I was just trying to determine if firing a heavier grain round, might be more to my advantage, rather than the 115 9mm that has consistently shot low for me. I fired about 50 124 gr, and things were a bit higher on the target.

I may go with the 357,or 38 but still up in the air as to whether to use a lighter round, or the 158 gr even there. I must admit that the first time I shot the 2" snubby, I was better than after 300 round of 9mm out of the PT111.

If there is a time limit, of a minute at least I am OK. I have enough speedloaders to have one set in the gun, and 18 more ready to rock and roll. With the 9mm I have 4 12 rd mags so I can do what every they want there on changes, even have belt holders for spare mags. We will be shooting outdoors and I have not seen the advance weather report for next tuesday yet.

Still would like some more input from the guys who have been thru it in their states, and what type of round they fired.

I might be OK, because I can get 10 or 11 in an 8.5 by 11 sheet at 30 feet out of a mag of 12.

 

[joe sixpack]

well luckly you only have to shoot 20 shots, in ohio it's 2hr's of range time.

7 yards silhouette is easy as pie they just wanna see if you can keep it on the body if you've shot more then 2 or 3 times chances are you would'nt even need the sights to pass..

the're only looking for little better then 50% accuracy and you got a large target.

i'd take which ever gun is the most accurate for you and take what ever gr bullet you can find.. i dont think it will matter at this range with that size target.

 

[Robby]

well luckly you only have to shoot 20 shots, in ohio it's 2hr's of range time.

7 yards silhouette is easy as pie they just wanna see if you can keep it on the body if you've shot more then 2 or 3 times chances are you would'nt even need the sights to pass..

the're only looking for little better then 50% accuracy and you got a large target.

i'd take which ever gun is the most accurate for you and take what ever gr bullet you can find.. i dont think it will matter at this range with that size target.

Well I left out the total range time matches OHIO!!with up to 100 rds. But the qualification is only 20 rounds, with 11 in the money slot. I have never even seen a B-21 target, but I figured out it must be man size, with the kill zone marked out. Being cheap I make my own out of cardbard sheets and computer paper targets.

About half the guys in the class are from Ohio, where I am taking the course. But he has a max of 12 in class compared to 40 in other classes around here.

You know we all want to be as accurate as possible, so I was trying to figure out what would keep me the highest on the target. I figure he will want all firing to be DA,if a revolver, so I wanted to hedge my bet.

 

[NYPD]

For me....I find these the most accurate factory practice ammo:

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=221033

 

[joe sixpack]

i'd be surprised if they did'nt allow SA & DA/SA in the course that would eliminate a lot of revolvers and some auto's.. 1911 comes to mind.

if i took my 92 for example i'd be having to decock after every round.

In my state the CHL applies to any hand gun, so the one you qualify with is'nt always the one you'll carry.. but check with your instructor because it sounds like a small class either he does'nt want to deal with a large group or wants to keep it small to give more individual attention, in which case he might have a few more rules then are required by law.

oh and good luck, im sure you'll do fine.

 

[Robby]

Oh he has a rules list. All the basic stuff, no gun in your hand behind the line, and it is 22 items long. None are any problem to do. One of his funniest is no bending over to pick up a dropped mag, or anything else, with the gun in your hand. But it does make sense, if you lose track of where the muzzle is. If its cold that day, I will wear my holster outside my parka!!

Oh I only meant that I did not think he would want me to cock and SA each time with revolver./

 

[Davidk0031]

Go with the PT111, at that range you'll see your hits easily enough to know if you need to aim a little high to compensate.


I agree I think a revolver would probably be required to be shot DA.

 

[Qwiks draw]

Here's something to remember. Some states make it mandatory to use a pistol for the CCW qualification shoot part. Then one can carry either a pistol or revolver. Not vice se versa.

If the course is shot with a revolver the state will qualify you for the revolver, but not for pistol carry.

I like the zippy 124gr. rounds over the more sedate 147gr. loads. 147 gr. may raise impact, but with my PT111 the 124s work better than with 147gainers.

The 147gr. loads are more like a .38 Special 158 gr load at the velocities they go at.

And it may be wise to shoot with the defense load that you will carry.

JHPs have a shorter bearing area than round nosed ammo and may feed differently or have a different point of impact from one another.
Not all same weight bullets hit the same point of impact on the target despite 'conventional wisdom" that they will. It can happen that POI is the same with the same bullet weights, but it is a general rule not written in stone.

Various powder burn rates or different powders for each type or brand of ammo can and do cause unknown factors to be introduced. So checking to see if your 124 grainers hit to point of aim would be a good idea.

If shooting the course can you handle the .357 magnums under duress and time alloted? .38 Specials may be the way to go. Especially if the 158gr. type. many .357 magnum revolvers will shoot to same point of impact as with the 158gr. magnums.

There's an interesting article written by Mas Ayoob that showed that shooting full power magnums,as a steady diet,regardless of bullet weight from snubbies, was causing major troubles for owners of Taurus 605 revolvers and S&W 5 shot magnum revolvers.

Ruger SP101s had no problems on what is listed below.

Cylinder gaps opened up and cause major spitting. Cylinder timing, locking, and indexing problems arose. This caused gun repair problems. Nothing major for the most part, but it could lead to major trouble.

Magnum light loads in the 125gr.-135gr. or 110gr. bullet weights were recommended.

Have to go along with that.

Recently in Gun Tests magazine a 605 and a Rossi 462 were tested with full power loads.

After a few cylinders full of this there were ejector problems and the guns had to have a minor fix, one for each type,and then the revolvers functioned flawlessly after that without troubles showing up.

Since even the S&W magnum snubbies ( other gun writers have documented this thoroughly) had troubles with a steady diet of full power magnums, it might be prudent to go with the lesser magnum loads or the .38 Special loads,as this is all part and parcel of these type of revolvers.

 

[Robby]

Qwiks draw
As usual you gave me some good insight into what I was asking. You are a fountain of information.

I am lucky that there is no requirement that I shoot either a pistol or revolver, and can only carry what I qualify with in KY. The instructor asks that we shoot a firearm that we could carry, the option of which is ours.
" Firearm (practical self-defense firearm appropriate for concealed carry)".
That pretty much eliminated my using the JUDGE!! Actually, I had considered using it, because in comparison with a short barreled gun, I am very accurate with that long barreled thing at every range I have shot.

So, in consideration of your and others comments. I think I will stick with the PT111. I just need to go out and find some 124's to use for the qualification. I only have 50 Wolf 124's. I still will probably go with FMJ, as I have not tested the PT111 with JHP at all yet. I know it loads and fires the FMJ's with no problem, only one failure to load in over 500 rounds.

As to if I had used the Rossi 357, it seemed more practical to me to use the 38's in 158 from the outset. I have enough speedloaders to handle a timed qualification if needed. I bought the 357 because I just wanted one with the 357 capability but with the JHP's, and +P being usable the 38's make more sense. Darn near impossible at the shops I have been to recently to find the low recoil 357 loads in any bullet.

Of course, I already know from practice that I am a lot more accurate with a 38 load in a 2" barrel snubby, even compared to the 3.5" of the PT111 but the PT will be my main carry off the farm.

 

[Qwiks draw]

Sounds like your more than competent with either.
This is a personal choice by your or anybody else for that matter.
Like your choices.

I would feel confident carrying a six shooter or the PT111.

One last bit...er...byte.. or such... as it's been found out through experimentation that it's easier to naturally grip a revolver's grip,draw and index properly the target, and shoot, over pistols. This all from almost any position and the gun concealed. Not by much, but when time is of the essence and proper technique under extreme duress is at hand, then I'll take the less fumble prone and sure thing.

Again, it's the accredited gun instructors who experimented this with themselves and many students to find this out.

Once I read about it I tried the methods out to see if there was any veracity to the claims. There is. For me anyway. Might be not for others.Case by case basis, don't you know.

Could be why snubbies are so popular( the public may be unaware of this) and are still a major force as far as CCW and home defense are concerned.

Not giving up at all on the pistols any time soon either. Too good a tool for defense for many reasons.

 

[Robby]

Sounds like your more than competent with either.
This is a personal choice by your or anybody else for that matter.
Like your choices.

Again, it's the accredited gun instructors who experimented this with themselves and many students to find this out. Once I read about it I tried the methods out to see if there was any veracity to the claims.

Could be why snubbies are so popular( the public may be unaware of this) and are still a major force as far as CCW and home defense are concerned.

Not giving up at all on the pistols any time soon either. Too good a tool for defense for many reasons.

Well at least now, I feel I can keep most of my shots on an 8 1/2 by 11 sheet. Competent, ??? uke: Probably not!! :bang: But for an old guy I just want to do as good as I CAN DO! I hope someone in the class is old enough to remember Viet Nam, :???: and not think the real battle was the first Gulf War. If their all kids, I may scream and run home!!!

 

[Qwiks draw]

If one can hit the target then they are doing well. Just need some minor adjustments is all.

It's the shooters who can't hit the broad side of a barn, from inside the barn, with the doors closed that I worry about. ;D

Granted, good marksmanship is needed in a defensive shooting.

 

[Mikeo]

I am the proud owner of over 1000 rds of 115 gr Remington UMC 9mm rounds, plus I have shot almost 500 more.
However, I have heard that I can help my shooting low somewhat, by using a heavier grained bullet. Yeah I read most of the threads here on that.
What I am finding online wise is various non +p rounds in 124 and 147 gr rounds. The 147 showing a 900 plus FPS, and the 124 somewhere in 1100 FPS.
I am going to take my Concealed carry course next Tuesday, and was debating whether or not to buy 100 rd of 147 FMJ to use in the training, if I use my PT111 to keep my shots higher during the training.

Of course I have another option, I can use my 357/38 Rossi 461, and use 130 or 158 gr rounds for this class. Would I be best to take the training with 38 rds, or 357??

Which one would you excellent shooters suggest? You guys that shoot like me, just keep quiet!!!

He advises against my shooting THE JUDGE, or any 45 without asking him in advance. So I guess I will leave it at home. Well I guess he is right (that thing is a hard to hide CC).

How low are you shooting? With the UMC 115 gr HPs, I shoot to point of aim, as with 124 gr Speer Gold Dots, and Blazer brass FMJs. I normally grab a 6 o'clock hold at a target, but a point of aim at a BG, so, i don;t think I'm off a bit.

The same goes with my 605 snub with 135 gr +P SB and 130 gr Federal .357s.

All these rounds are close to POA.

 

[Robby]

How low are you shooting? With the UMC 115 gr HPs, I shoot to point of aim, as with 124 gr Speer Gold Dots, and Blazer brass FMJs. I normally grab a 6 o'clock hold at a target, but a point of aim at a BG, so, i don;t think I'm off a bit.

The same goes with my 605 snub with 135 gr +P SB and 130 gr Federal .357s.

All these rounds are close to POA.

Well if you have been around here and done any reading! Shooting low and left is common for a right handed shooter with the Short barreled PT's. Some due to the Heinie sight, some due to pushing the barrel left when squeezing trigger, and tightening the grip, (if your a rookie semi auto shooter, you have to make some changes in what you do). ;D
I was looking to make sure I did not take the targets crotch out, when I was aiming at his heart.
Well to finish this thread the longest way possible.
We did shot Tuesday, during the worst rain storm in weeks, outdoor range, 7 to 10 yards over a pool of water, cold, Wet, shivering like a leaf in a windstorm. Now I have never been in a high stress shooting situation at all, but the conditions that day were stressful on the body, hands, eyes. Had a 20's somthing, just out of the service Army Sargent, standing at my shoulder to check my shots and handling of the weapon.
There is a center ring on the B21 target, about 5" max size. Shooting 115 gr light loads, I put all twenty rounds within the circle.
So all my sweating about qualifying was for nothing. But it probably was my most accurate 20 rd shoot ever before.
So now I just wait on the paperwork from the State, and go to the Sheriff with it, then wait somemore for the state to do the fed check thing, and ship me more paperwork, to take back to the sheriff to pick up my license. (does anyone see a vicious circle of running from place to place several times for the same purpose)

 

[rwcreigh]

its real easy here in texas.i would even say it fun.i too use umc because of the price but i used win. 100 round for the class

 

[Robby]

I am going to hate when I run thru this last 1000 rds. It will cost me almost double what I paid to replace it, unless I luck into one of those sales again. I only paid $6.89 per 50, for 9mm 115 gr, but lowest I have seen in last few weeks, was at or above $11.00. Now that hurts, so I am gonna keep my eyes out for Wolf, Bear, and the other imported stuff, and hope to get a good price. I bought a couple boxes of 124 gr, wolf, and it fired good, steel cases and all.

 

[rwcreigh]

if you find some good prices let us know

 

[Mikeo]

Well if you have been around here and done any reading! Shooting low and left is common for a right handed shooter with the Short barreled PT's. Some due to the Heinie sight, some due to pushing the barrel left when squeezing trigger, and tightening the grip, (if your a rookie semi auto shooter, you have to make some changes in what you do). ;D
I was looking to make sure I did not take the targets crotch out, when I was aiming at his heart.
Well to finish this thread the longest way possible.
We did shot Tuesday, during the worst rain storm in weeks, outdoor range, 7 to 10 yards over a pool of water, cold, Wet, shivering like a leaf in a windstorm. Now I have never been in a high stress shooting situation at all, but the conditions that day were stressful on the body, hands, eyes. Had a 20's somthing, just out of the service Army Sargent, standing at my shoulder to check my shots and handling of the weapon.
There is a center ring on the B21 target, about 5" max size. Shooting 115 gr light loads, I put all twenty rounds within the circle.
So all my sweating about qualifying was for nothing. But it probably was my most accurate 20 rd shoot ever before.
So now I just wait on the paperwork from the State, and go to the Sheriff with it, then wait somemore for the state to do the fed check thing, and ship me more paperwork, to take back to the sheriff to pick up my license. (does anyone see a vicious circle of running from place to place several times for the same purpose)

Hope I didn't offend you by my comment. Yes, I have been around and I do read, actually, much more than I post, but my curiosity revolved around how much was considered low.
Not a rookie shooter, by any means, (I'm 57 and have been shooting since my tour in Vietnam, in 1971), I've only found a few handguns that shot really low. My experiences with lighter bullets shooting low have mostly to do with extremely fast velocities. The UMC 115 gr load doesn't seem exceptionally fast to cause the gun to shoot too low.
I was only curious since I do shoot to POA instead of 6 o'clock, but that is ok for these old eyes.
Congrats, btw, on the successful outing.