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The leader of an Oklahoma Second Amendment advocacy group said Tuesday he plans to take legal action after Tulsa police officers refused to allow him to enter Oktoberfest while in possession of a concealed handgun.

Oklahoma Second Amendment Association President Don Spencer posted a video on YouTube of an encounter Friday between him, at least two retired officers working event security and at least three Tulsa police officers. In the video, which is almost nine minutes in length, Spencer presents his Self-Defense Act license and tells the officers state law allows him to be on the premises at River West Festival Park with a concealed firearm.

But about six minutes and 45 seconds into the clip, Sgt. Chris Witt says to Spencer, “You can step outside here or you can go to jail for trespassing. Your choice. Right now.”


https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/government-and-politics/leader-of-second-amendment-advocacy-group-considering-lawsuit-after-being/article_d252a74b-d49b-592e-b4f5-7cde5f05f4ee.html

It is wrong when local governments think they can make up the laws as they go along and deny a legally armed citizen from attending a festival on city streets.

We either have rights or we do not.

We definitely will not have any rights if we do not fight for them.
 

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Sorry but I will support Tulsa on this. They can make a reasonable case for banning firearms and it really looks like the 2A folk were simply begging to give the City and yet more evidence to justify actions.

A basic common sense rule it to not mix guns and booze and choosing to make their protest at a Beer Fest was simply stupidity run rampant!
 

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Well.......there is a right and wrong way to do just about everything.

I can assure all that trying to argue with a policeman while he is on duty at his post doing what he believes to be his job- is the wrong way to deal with "right to carry"- or what ever right one is trying to exercise. This kind of activity is stupid. These kinds of misunderstandings must be worked out at the state level in the legislature, and not out on the street in a "show out" session.

I believe this group should cool their heels and talk to their representatives and senators and push this down from the top.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Sorry but I will support Tulsa on this. They can make a reasonable case for banning firearms and it really looks like the 2A folk were simply begging to give the City and yet more evidence to justify actions.

A basic common sense rule it to not mix guns and booze and choosing to make their protest at a Beer Fest was simply stupidity run rampant!
There is no law that one must drink if they attend Octoberfest. It was mentioned specifically in the article that the guy wanted to listen to music and eat the food and did not wish to drink. It is also against the law to drink and carry concealed and he was well aware of that.

I am curious as to who these "2A folk" are that you refer to?

Are they not every law abiding and Constitutional supporting gun owner?

Or, are they those that pick and choose what rights they support and only support rights when it specifically effects them?

This is a prime example of how we have lost so many rights so far as the anti's continually chip away at them.

We either have rights or we do not.

There is no valid reason for a law abiding citizen, one that has a CC Permit and has passed a background check, jumping through those hoops, should be denied entry to a festival conducted on public streets and parks.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Well.......there is a right and wrong way to do just about everything.

I can assure all that trying to argue with a policeman while he is on duty at his post doing what he believes to be his job- is the wrong way to deal with "right to carry"- or what ever right one is trying to exercise. This kind of activity is stupid. These kinds of misunderstandings must be worked out at the state level in the legislature, and not out on the street in a "show out" session.

I believe this group should cool their heels and talk to their representatives and senators and push this down from the top.
Unless there is a denial of rights, there is no case to present to your Representatives as they can simply say, "Where were you denied your right?"

In other words, without being denied entry, he had not been negatively effected by the illegal policy of the city.
 

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IMO, the whole argument is contained here:

“We’ve gone through the expense to put a perimeter fence,” Cpl. Mark Shelton says to Spencer in the video. “We’ve established the rules that we want. We’re allowed to make exceptions to who comes in and who doesn’t.”

Matt Meyer, executive director of the River Parks Authority, expressed a similar view. He told the World that Oktoberfest is a “ticketed and gated” private event and that organizers can therefore set their own rules.

The question is, is their argument permissible or in violation or the law. Looks like some lawyers will have to get involved to get resolution.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
IMO, the whole argument is contained here:

“We’ve gone through the expense to put a perimeter fence,” Cpl. Mark Shelton says to Spencer in the video. “We’ve established the rules that we want. We’re allowed to make exceptions to who comes in and who doesn’t.”

Matt Meyer, executive director of the River Parks Authority, expressed a similar view. He told the World that Oktoberfest is a “ticketed and gated” private event and that organizers can therefore set their own rules.

The question is, is their argument permissible or in violation or the law. Looks like some lawyers will have to get involved to get resolution.
It used to be legal to post such events as "No Colored Allowed" too, but that did not make it right.

But, the argument is whether or not you can cordon off public spaces and make them private so that you can trample on peoples rights.
 
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I assumed discrimination of any kind and against anyone on public property was illegal. Knowing how things really work though, I figured I'd better look it up before saying anything. As I understand it, social exclusion of anyone or any group of people on public property is technically illegal. However, gov't entities can legally subvert anyone's Constitutional rights through broadly or in most cases, absolutely undefined "nuisance laws/ordinances". In short, authorities or those in charge of an event on public property, can legally exclude, bar, i.e. discriminate against anyone they choose simply by claiming their presence could negatively effect the "quality of life" of others attending. It's sort of like Article 134 of the UCMJ, just a catch-all to make a crime out of legal activity.
 

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Couple of things I found with a quick search on OK laws

No gun signs enforced
NO
“No Weapons” signs are not mentioned in Oklahoma gun laws. There are no legal penalties for entering a private property or business that has posted these signs. They have no force of law unless they are posted in areas that are mentioned by the law as being off limits. If asked to leave a property and you refuse to do so then you are breaking the law and put yourself at risk of being charged for trespass.

21 O.S. 1290.22 - Business owners rights

I understand that the fest' was on land being rented for the occasion, does this rental fall under the "business owners" rights and or does the management authority have the ability to "grant those rights" to the renter?
Also would we debate the same thing if it was a birthday party and someone who wasn't invited refused to leave (gun owner or not)....


Restaurant carry
YES
Under Oklahoma law if you are carrying a firearm then you cannot enter an establishment who's primary business is selling alcohol. This means that if you are in a restaurant that has a bar area you should not enter that area. Carrying a firearm in an area of a restuarant where food is being consumed and is the primary business is legal.


The penalty for carrying a fiream into an establishment that sells alcohol as their primary business is a felony with up to 2 years in prison.


21 O.S. 1272.1

So the question that begs to be asked might be was the "primary business" of the fest' selling alcohol? If so, could this potentially have led to a felony charge?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Couple of things I found with a quick search on OK laws

No gun signs enforced
NO
“No Weapons” signs are not mentioned in Oklahoma gun laws. There are no legal penalties for entering a private property or business that has posted these signs. They have no force of law unless they are posted in areas that are mentioned by the law as being off limits. If asked to leave a property and you refuse to do so then you are breaking the law and put yourself at risk of being charged for trespass.

21 O.S. 1290.22 - Business owners rights

I understand that the fest' was on land being rented for the occasion, does this rental fall under the "business owners" rights and or does the management authority have the ability to "grant those rights" to the renter?
Also would we debate the same thing if it was a birthday party and someone who wasn't invited refused to leave (gun owner or not)....


Restaurant carry
YES
Under Oklahoma law if you are carrying a firearm then you cannot enter an establishment who's primary business is selling alcohol. This means that if you are in a restaurant that has a bar area you should not enter that area. Carrying a firearm in an area of a restuarant where food is being consumed and is the primary business is legal.


The penalty for carrying a fiream into an establishment that sells alcohol as their primary business is a felony with up to 2 years in prison.


21 O.S. 1272.1

So the question that begs to be asked might be was the "primary business" of the fest' selling alcohol? If so, could this potentially have led to a felony charge?
It was music, dancing, food, and booze.

It was not mandated that participants had to partake in all activities.
 

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Sorry but I will support Tulsa on this. They can make a reasonable case for banning firearms and it really looks like the 2A folk were simply begging to give the City and yet more evidence to justify actions.

A basic common sense rule it to not mix guns and booze and choosing to make their protest at a Beer Fest was simply stupidity run rampant!
Yeah, I agree with you on this one.
 

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There is no valid reason for a law abiding citizen, one that has a CC Permit and has passed a background check, jumping through those hoops, should be denied entry to a festival conducted on public streets and parks.
Well yes, IMHO there was a very good reason to deny them entrance. My Momma wudda called it little brats jess askin for trouble.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
It is sad that we have so many gun owners that SAY they support gun rights yet have no idea what the concept of Liberty, Freedom and individual rights even means.

I realize that years of indoctrination in our public schools, on television and in the movies, as well as the MSM has done a fine job of teaching many to give up their rights and freedoms for the so-called public good.

And that is terrifying for those of us that understand what this incremental shift towards an ever more powerful state will lead to.

I guess they believe that by denying the right to carry at this festival, they have somehow made it safer and are willing to give up the right to carry in order to attend the festival.

The issue is, they have a right not to carry. They do not have the right to advocate the taking of my right to carry simply because they feel it is best.

This is why we are losing our rights step by step. We have far too many out there willing to give up the rights of others because they do not feel it effects them to do so.

Often they claim to be pro-gun yet they fear guns much like the anti's.

With friends like that, we are doomed to continue to lose our rights one by one.

"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen." ~ Samuel Adams
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Well yes, IMHO there was a very good reason to deny them entrance. My Momma wudda called it little brats jess askin for trouble.
How is a lawful gun carrier that has a concealed carry permit complete with no criminal record be just a "little brat(s) askin for trouble?"

Please explain?
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yeah, I agree with you on this one.
So you do not think a non-drinker that likes food and music cannot attend a public festival carrying concealed without being an issue?

Why would it be a problem?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Here's my take. If the property is maintained with tax dollars, then legal concealed carry should be permitted.

Maloy
Exactly!
 

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How is a lawful gun carrier that has a concealed carry permit complete with no criminal record be just a "little brat(s) askin for trouble?"

Please explain?
The fact that someone can lawfully do something does not mean they should do something.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
The fact that someone can lawfully do something does not mean they should do something.
Well that clears that up?

Are you that afraid of Freedom and people exercising their rights?

We carry everywhere in Kentucky with a high percentage of gun carriers. It has never been an issue and there is not blood in the streets. We do not allow our government to block off our city streets and parks and then deny us entry. People are actually very polite here and do not go about attacking others.
 
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