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Depends on if you have time to do the double tap and FMJ is not notmally a good pick as is referenced in the links.

FMJ,even at relative sedate speeds has and will penetrate through and through the body , other obstaclesn and still have enough energy to kill or cause grave harm.

JHPs are a better pick under most circumstances unless Federals EFMJ or Corbon Powerball.

JHP sue and the reasons for it are in the text of the links.

There's the cases of two different cops for whom the double tap didn't work. With FMJ no less.

First case the off duty LEO shoots bad guy with knife attacking his wife. Then turns and does the same to another perp who's attacking the defender. He hears a scream. Turns to see the first guy stick butcher type knife into his wife. The first perp had two well placed ball ammo shots in him.Perp had to be reshot several more times before he ceased his actions. Perp did die. The LEO's wife nearly did, but was saved by almost two days of surgery,teams of surgeons working aorund the clock, and her will.

Second case comes out of New York. And this had been documented in other cases as well.

Off duty LEO is in a store when three vicious criminals hold the store up.All the perps are armed. LEO sees that these guys are serious about killing someone 'just cause they can' and draws his .45ACP pistol and shoots.

Double taps first and second perps. Third perp shoots him to death while other perps are being double tapped. This even though the LEO is an excellent shot and quick. Not quick enough. One shot apiece and then come back to each target may have worked better. Cover available was not used either.

This is not to shame or disgrace these fine LEOs. They did what they thought was proper at the time and did so. Circumstances they could not foresee dictated otherwise.

Some of this could have been avoided or dealt with in a different way. Hindsight is great in some ways. We can learn from this some things.

Assuming the situations are going to according to in a certain way and only that way are erroneous at best. Doesn't happen that way in the real world. These examples show that.

There are many more like this well documented in police and tactical journals.

So read away and go with a quality defense round and be confident in it and its use.

Even the Winchester older JHPs work well in .45ACP.
 

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Qwiks draw said:
There's the cases of two different cops for whom the double tap didn't work. With FMJ no less.
Can you offer an opinion on how these stories might have gone if they had been using those horrible, terrible, bad, awful, politically incorrect, black talons instead of FMJ?

JimL
 

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I'll state this for the record, any good JHP, of which Winchester BT is one, could very well of changed the course of what did happen. The newer JHPs are designed to expand at low velocities and penetrate deeper than the older generations of JHP.

If the nose of the hollowpoint is jammed with fiber material from very thick clothes( winter clothing), or fills with other debris, such as a hit in the gut, then the JHP does become a ball round of sorts. So there is some reason for FMJ in winter. Still would rather use JHP over FMJ under just about all circumstances though. This just for the better wounding potential over FMJ. Something about better to have it and not need it over needing it and not having it.

Winchester's dropping BT was a major mistake IMHO. What tooks its place is also a very good round as well.

Since the excellent real world record of JHPs is highly documented that's good reason enough to go with them.
 

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Those are considered to be the new 'Flying Ashtrays' of the bullet world. This is due to the large size of the hollowpoint as compared to other hollowpoint types. The original 'Flying Ashtray' had a slightly wider mouth, but the newer one works better through most pistols than the one of old.
Not saying those are the only good ones. Just that the Speer load is an excellent one.
 

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I didn't mean to say that you should use FMJ. Just that they are effective. I personally use a mix of Winchester silvertip HP and magsafes. I also do prefer to use one hit per perp and then go back to hit again if needed. You have to vary tactics acourding to the situation. If you have only one perp, doubletap em then head shot if he doesn't go down. If you have multiples then do the "Nevada sweep". But you always want to get multple hits. I also read an article recently, where they did testing with hollow points into gelatin through various thicknesses of clothing. There didn't seem to be any differance in bullet performance.
 

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Qwiks draw said:
Winchester's dropping BT was a major mistake IMHO. What tooks its place is also a very good round as well.
Some writers seem convinced that they merely renamed the BT and changed the bullet color because of the media clamor over such "vicious" cartridges.

The new ones are buyable in some places, but I'd probably avoid them because of the "wanton killer" image prosecutors like to present in court.

JimL
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
my reference was as to weather the pistol would handle the extra pressure, or if the extra pressure would cause the slide to come back with enough force to damage the pistol after some time frame. or if the barrel would handle the extra pressure. that kind of thing. I HAD NO INTENT of starting a BULLET FUNCTIONING / design / choice discussion.
 

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mooose102 said:
my reference was as to weather the pistol would handle the extra pressure, or if the extra pressure would cause the slide to come back with enough force to damage the pistol after some time frame. or if the barrel would handle the extra pressure. that kind of thing. I HAD NO INTENT of starting a BULLET FUNCTIONING / design / choice discussion.
It should be able to handle it fine but if you're worried about it being a problem you can probably find a heavier recoil spring.
 

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First of all Wichester got rid of the BT and went with what they ahve know which is a derivative of BT without the 'horrible petals'. This is direct from the source itself and has been out there for years. Periodicals,tactical and police journals have this documented as well.Know that time has passed the technology is being dusted and off and being brought back to the fore again.

As far as prosecutors using it in court against someone using hollowpoints, yes it can be used against you in court, but this line of attack is easily proveable, and has been done so successfully demonstrated thousands of times in court, that hollowpoints are better at all levels and a humane person using them is better than suing JHPs. Competent defense lawyers know this stuff.

There's a federation of trail lawyers who put out this info and all the cases where this is precedent,how to present it, and the facts/science behind all this. Even the ballistics people and pathologists have set the groundwork for all this as well.

The pistol should handle the full diet and spectrum of the +P .45ACP world, but why feed it a steady diet of +P in a small frame pistol when there is a law of diminshing returns by using +P in shorty barreled pistols?
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=2418.0

There haven't been any blowups, or returns to the factory,nor have there been recalls do to +P use.But again, why batter the gun,internal parts, and the shooter when standard pressure will get the job done out of the shorty barrels.The battering the gun will take,even if it is designed for it, will shorten the life and parts of the gun over time.

Even with a stronger spring. This is true for all the other brands,makes,and models by other companies as well despite any 'hype' that may be out there.

Even though these guns may be designed or said to be +P able, these are still small pistols with small parts. All brands, makes, and models by any company that make compact pistols have the same problems with service life and function with any ammo.

Performance parameter windows on fit, function, and how much wear and tear they can take ,are much narrower than for full size pistols. Physics and science laws show there is a low operational area for these. Don't abuse the frames and parts that much 'just because you can'. These are mechanical contrivances with the narrow performance parameters. It has to be that way. Don't try to get large gun performance out of a compact or subcompact gun. That's not what they were designed to do nor can they be designed and made that way.

These are also specialist guns. Like the .38 Special snubbie these are not made to do a .357 magnum's job.

There are snubbie 5 shot .357 magnums by numerous makers.

They all report or it has been documented that continous use of the really hot .357 magnums causes fit,function, and safety troubles somewhere up the road for these.
Even the shorty K framed brethren of any maker can have this happen. For example, S&W has the L frame snubbie which will do an excellent job with full power magnums. Heft and bulk are the handicaps. Compact pistols and subcompacts in .45ACP could be designed that way but the bulk and heft of carry would offset the real carry virtues of the pistol. Won't go into all that here.Like anything else there are a FEW exceptions to the rules.

The caveat is that using a reputable ammo companies +P should be what's used. No +P reloads should be used. Or someone else's +P reloads. To easy to over do it or have a misstep.
 

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It was not accurate it had way to much muzzle flip and it would fail to load a round in the chamber once out of every mag.

one the flip side my carry piece doesnt like 185 grain reloads either, they cycled and shot fine but it wasnt enough pressure to push the slide far enough back to lock it after the mag was empty
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
i have not had any problems, yet, as i have not shot any "+p" ammo yet. over the years, i have learned questions first BEFORE i break something! "i am not a smart man, i just have lots of experience!"
 
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