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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by 57K View Post
    There is also a new manual from Western Powder Co. that includes pressure rated data. I had the opportunity to proof read it before it was released. My buddy, Rob Behr, wrote all of the instructional section and the individual introduction to each cartridge. There are none better, IMO, with the exception of Lyman's pressure rated data. The one caveat that I will mention concerns the +P 9mm data. There is no reason, or none that I'm aware of, why you would want to use one of their powders that burns faster than Silhouette. It's almost like an exercise with no practical value other than seeing how close you can get with a powder to the 38,500 PSI limit for +P. That still, however, gives you excellent +P powder choices with Silhouette, True Blue, AA #7 and even #9 in some cases.

    Thing is, if you don't have any source for pressure rated data, you're not likely going to understand the pressure characteristics for a particular powder and bullet combination. But hey, if you're good enough to fly by instruments only, that's your call! Even while powders are not linear in pressure increase with powder charge increase, if you can mathematically interpolate the numbers, you can still get closer to your targeted velocity. Don't want to toot my own horn, but I have conversations with Rob Behr pretty frequently on ballistic topics. He could tell you that when we've discussed powder charge increases or decreases, on a good many occasions I've been below 10 FPS in my estimate of velocity, when changing charge-weight or OACL. I've used that much Silhouette, and as far as a linear representation of velocity to powder charge difference. True Blue is gonna be as close as you have likely seen.

    When it comes to max charges and pressures. There is a set pressure that the cartridge is rated to and published data. How safe is it to go over the published data lets say true blue powder to achieve a desired velocity?
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by xiholdtruex View Post
    anyone who has the lyman manuals is there a big difference between the loads from a normal lymans manual compared to a cast bullet lymans manual? from my understanding linotype bullets is what they refer to as cast.
    There is a big difference in load data
    between Lyman's reloading handbook and the Cast Boolit Handbook
    About the Boolit composition. They show mostly their own Lyman's #2. But they also show if it's 20-1 or Linotype. Or what the composition is and of course the majority of the Boolit mold numbers are theirs

    Toby

    Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk
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  3. #33
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    My first question: How do you know you are exceeding max pressure?

    While you may be using max charge, is your firearm, brass, primer, powder, and bullet combination achieving the pressure for which the charge is rated?
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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by william View Post
    My first question: How do you know you are exceeding max pressure?

    While you may be using max charge, is your firearm, brass, primer, powder, and bullet combination achieving the pressure for which the charge is rated?
    Simple answer? You don't unless you narrow everything down to one single load from one single pistol. At that point you need to fire a standard pressure round to get the case-head dimension .200" above the rim for 9 x 19mm.That is similar to fire forming rifle cases.You can't rely solely on the primers telling you that you're over pressure. Once you go above the listed charge for MAX , when the case-head diameter of the warmer loads exceeds .001" from what the published Max Load you tested for case-head diameter measured, you could be over pressure. That is unless the epiphany aliens show up in your bedroom in the middle-of-the-night to provide you with data that exceeds your load manuals without exceeding the Max Average Pressure, MAP, for the specific caliber, you need to stick with published data. Or, invest in the req'd pressure testing equipment.

    From XHTX,
    When it comes to max charges and pressures. There is a set pressure that the cartridge is rated to and published data. How safe is it to go over the published data lets say true blue powder to achieve a desired velocity?
    Ask yourself this. Why do you need more velocity than what a cartridge is capable of? If you've ever taken a course in physics, regardless of how elementary, you should know that there are limits as to what you can expect from any round. If published data doesn't float your boat, go to a caliber that does. You can NOT turn the 9mm into the 10mm via handloading.

    Maybe I should explain why I asked for the data from the Lyman 50th edition. First" I don't have the 50th edition. Second: Western changed their source for AA #7 from the Czech Republic, to St. Marks in FLA, USA. What I'm interested in investigating is if the newer US made product, is identical to the former Czech Republic product.
    Last edited by 57K; 04-06-2019 at 12:29 AM.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by 57K View Post
    Simple answer? You don't unless you narrow everything down to one single load from one single pistol. At that point you need to fire a standard pressure round to get the case-head dimension .200" above the rim for 9 x 19mm.That is similar to fire forming rifle cases.You can't rely solely on the primers telling you that you're over pressure. Once you go above the listed charge for MAX , when the case-head diameter of the warmer loads exceeds .001" from what the published Max Load you tested for case-head diameter measured, you could be over pressure. That is unless the epiphany aliens show up in your bedroom in the middle-of-the-night to provide you with data that exceeds your load manuals without exceeding the Max Average Pressure, MAP, for the specific caliber, you need to stick with published data. Or, invest in the req'd pressure testing equipment.



    Ask yourself this. Why do you need more velocity than what a cartridge is capable of? If you've ever taken a course in physics, regardless of how elementary, you should know that there are limits as to what you can expect from any round. If published data doesn't float your boat, go to a caliber that does. You can NOT turn the 9mm into the 10mm via handloading.

    Maybe I should explain why I asked for the data from the Lyman 50th edition. First" I don't have the 50th edition. Second: Western changed their source for AA #7 from the Czech Republic, to St. Marks in FLA, USA. What I'm interested in investigating is if the newer US made product, is identical to the former Czech Republic product.
    yep There is no replacement for displacement.
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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by 57K View Post
    Then Mr. Yiisnakk, I have a great favor to ask for when you can find the time. In my Pistol & Revolver III the data is the same as the handgun section in the Lyman 49th. And my complete Lyman is . . . well, I still use the 46th when possible, and partly because of some of the excellent tech articles including a few from some very wise reloaders who are no longer with us.

    So, what I'm interested in is which 147 gr. 9mm jacketed bullet Lyman used in 9mm with it's OACL. In the P&R III they used the SPEER 147 gr. TMJ. But I still need the Max charges for True Blue and AA #7 for both the jacketed and cast lead bullets if Lyman changed anything in the recipe from the 49th.

    I will be in your debt, sir!

    Sorry, just saw this!

    In the Lymans 50th, they only provide 147gn flat nosed TMJ data. Cartridge length is stated for this singular bullet as 1.115" and 1.058" for the 147gn lead bullet.

    True Blue charge for the 147gn bullet in 5.0gn min and 5.6gn max charge for the TMJ data and a min of 4.7gn and max of 5.3gn for a 147gn lead bullet.
    AA#7 has 6.0 min and 7.2 max for the 147gn TMJ and oddly enough, 6.3 min and 7.1 max for 147gn lead.

    Let me know if that was what you were looking for.
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  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yissnakk View Post
    Sorry, just saw this!

    In the Lymans 50th, they only provide 147gn flat nosed TMJ data. Cartridge length is stated for this singular bullet as 1.115" and 1.058" for the 147gn lead bullet.

    True Blue charge for the 147gn bullet in 5.0gn min and 5.6gn max charge for the TMJ data and a min of 4.7gn and max of 5.3gn for a 147gn lead bullet.
    AA#7 has 6.0 min and 7.2 max for the 147gn TMJ and oddly enough, 6.3 min and 7.1 max for 147gn lead.

    Let me know if that was what you were looking for.
    Thank you, sir! That's exactly what I was asking for and the data is identical to the Lyman 49th and the Pistol & Revolver III.
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  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by william View Post
    My first question: How do you know you are exceeding max pressure?

    While you may be using max charge, is your firearm, brass, primer, powder, and bullet combination achieving the pressure for which the charge is rated?

    57K's very astute answer not withstanding (great summation, btw!) a shooter generally finds out they are exceeding max pressure for their firearm when a couple of things start to happen - flattened primers and exaggerated ejector marks on the case head are a good warning sign that you are pushing your luck, cratered or cratered and punctured primers (where the brass of the primer cup starts looking like a volcano) is generally, but not always, the next stage of warning indications. Blown primers are also a possibility. Other signs that you've exceeded the safety limit will be the extractor chewing up the case rim, broken extractors, and, of course, the gun blowing up.

    Generally speaking, the listed max charges are a bit lower than they used to be in various manuals due to powder manufacturers possibly taking lower quality steel of some newer imported firearms into account, or just worried about law suits (that is a bit of speculation on my part) - but 10mm is a great example of this - the Speer manual 10th edition listed significantly higher charges for powders than in the 14th edition.

    As for whether or not a particular firearm is giving you the best performance for a given charge...I use a chronograph, see what the expected velocity is usually for a longer barrel than I'm shooting, and compare what I get to what the listed velocity for a certain powder charge is and then decide if I think it's doing its job in my gun, taking into account barrel length of my firearm and other variables such as the primer, bullet and brass head stamp.

    Unless you have a device to scientifically measure the pressure of a particular round (these are very expensive to get), you really just have to compare what you get vs what is expected/documented, and make your decision.
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  10. #39
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    Maybe with one exception. Even with my +P loads in 9mm, the fired primers, as far as I can see, aren't much different than standard pressure loads, so I really don't use that to gauge pressure. But maybe something significant in that, if I was using faster burning powders in my 9mm +P loads that might result in more pressure sign on the primer.

    I'd like to think what I've read in the Lyman 46th continued on in the later editions, but essentially what is stated in the excellent chapter on Exterior Ballisics is that between 15,000 and 40,000 PSI, there is a linear relationship between pressure and case-head expansion.
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  11. #40
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    There's another dynamic here. First, the Lyman P&R III came out at a time that was close enough to Western getting St. Marks to make #7 for them that I wasn't sure which product Lyman actually tested. So with the same data shown in the 50th edition, I think it's safe to say that it was the St. Marks #7 that Lyman used in the load data.

    I can tell you that the 7.2 charge of #7 with the SPEER 147 gr. TMJ is going to chrono faster from a longer barrel, 4.47" in my case, than the 1014 FPS Lyman got from their 4" test barrel. Here's another example why I harp on pressure rated data. This load pressure tested at 29,000 CUP while the SAAMI Max for the 9 x 19mm is 33,000 CUP/35,000 PSI. In short, they left 4000 CUP on the table. Now my loads are longer, 1.142"/29mm with the 147 gr. Gold Dot and HST, but at 7.4 grs. I get 1125 FPS or more. a .2 gr. powder charge increase with an increase in OACL by .027", well I just show the numbers from my own personal calculation: By lengthening and considering the increase in available combustion area, to keep pressure similar I calculate a charge of 7.37 grs. So, I'm thinking that's what I did, and with 7.4 grs. What this means is that it is very unlikely, if Lyman tested my load that there's be much difference in pressure, and certainly not +P. My own theory from doing this for quite some time now, is there seems to be a relationship with velocity increasing without much pressure rise because of the longer burn column of powder. Don't take that as gospel because I have not as yet pressure tested. I could probably get Rob Behr to have the boys in the Western lab test it, but I do not care so much for the pressure barrel they test with in 9mm. I believe it artificially increases pressure by the chamber and rifling being at the minimum of SAAMI spec, and thereby still within SAAMI spec. One of these days I'm gonna have to get the Pressure Trace pressure testing equipment and software/ They claim it's more accurate than anything being used currently by the component makers/data providers. As far as the test barrel, all you need is a fixed barrel pistol like the TC Contender, and a company called Bulberry, if they're still around, makes barrels in varying lengths.

    But a word of warning, because the loads I'm using at 1125 FPS have a Power Factor of 165 which is Major Power Factor, you're gonna need to get a heavier recoil spring. Go up by at least 2# over the factory spring, or better yet, if you have a pistol that's made in both 9 x 19mm and .40 S&W, get the .40 rated weight. For most pistols, Wollfe will show the factory weight rating.

    I haven't done that for my Canik TP9sa because it's captured spring assembly was heavier than most to begin with. And before I bought it sight-unseen, I had Century Arms confirm that it is +P rated as any pistol should be that meets NATO spec where pressure is 36,500 PSI/CIP.
    Last edited by 57K; 04-06-2019 at 04:02 PM.
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