Tokarev tt33 vs CZ 52
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  1. #1
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    Tokarev tt33 vs CZ 52

    Hello to all.

    For about 2 weeks now if been thinking of buying a old CZ or Tokarev. now there about the same price here in town $150 at dealers and $110-$130 at gun shows. Yes i know there Cheap but from what Ive heard there great little guns now i have looked on Google about which one is a better buy but it is just to mixed and if i where to go buy what others say all the time i would not have bought a Taurus. they both shoot the 7.62X25mm round its a 90 grain, 1200-1800fps round(fast little guy) and the ammo is not that expensive truly. my question is does anyone own one or have they ever fired one well if so give your 2 cents thanks

    Tokarev TT-33
    CZ-52

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    Re: Tokarev tt33 vs CZ 52

    The Tokarev is the classic, but beware of different countries of origin-- price wise it looks like yours probably is a Romanian. They make pretty fair weapons, but I have seen Romanian import Tokarevs be butchered with a safety, and sort of "rattley" when handled.

    The CZ52 though is made well-- the only drawbacks are the firing pin and weak springs. You can pick up both of those fairly on the cheap.

    Both are fun and the 7.62X25 is a hot little booger of a round-- just make sure that is you shoot the corrosive stuff you douse the innards down with windex or diluted ammonia when you are done... then lube it up--

    Good luck, and at those prices, you can't go wrong with either.

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    Re: Tokarev tt33 vs CZ 52

    CZ52 is prettier and more ergonomic, but IMO Tokarev is a stronger gun.
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    Re: Tokarev tt33 vs CZ 52

    That's not exactly the case the cz52 was designed to take the hotter 7.62x25 load and if you want to shoot czech ammo (sellier and bellot anyone?) you should get the cz. While the tokarevs are a good gun, their is no real safe way for concealed carry, you have to carry it with a round, so for the range it's okay, but it's not a packer. I would like to add however, that the tokarevs seem to be a more collectible piece since several commie countries made them in different variations while the cz's were only made in Czechoslovakia. If you get the Tokarev you need to pay attention to the 7.62x25 ammo you are buying since the stuff made for the czech has the exact same dimensions, but they can produce way more pressure than the tokarev could handle which has been known to cause catastrophic failure.

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    Re: Tokarev tt33 vs CZ 52

    There are a lot of warning that go with Tokarevs in general.

    Some were imported from China a few years back that the safties didn't put the gun on safe. The safety levers spun around doing nothing. That may have been taken care of, but it's something to look at with any Tok that had a safety put on as afterthoughts.

    TokaEgypts have a safety, but those generally work.

    Do not carry the gun around with the hammer at half cock position.

    Behold, the Tokarev.
    Chambering: 7.62x25mm TT (7.63 mm Mauser)
    Type: Single action
    Weight: 910 g
    Length: 116 mm
    Capacity: 8 rounds

    The Tokarev TT ("Tula, Tokarev") pistol was developed as a result of continuous trials, held by the Red Army in the mid- and late 1920s. Red Army looked for a new, modern semiautomatic pistol to replace obsolete Nagant M1895 revolvers and a variety of foreign semi-automatic pistols. One of the most popular foreign handguns, purchased in numbers during 1920s, was the famous Mauser C96, and the Red Army really liked its powerful 7.63mm cartridge, which, in slightly modified form ,selected for its future pistol of domestic design. Red Army tested several pistols of various designers, and in 1930 eventually selected the design of the famous Russian arms designer, Fedor Tokarev. During 1930 - 1932 Red Army procured several thousands of new pistol, and after initial field testing requested several improvements, which resulted in the adoption of the model 1933 Tokarev pistol early in 1934. This pistol was manufactured in increased numbers prior to the Great Patriotic War. Before July 22, 1941, about 600 000 TT-33 pistols were delivered to Red Army. During war pistols were made in increasing numbers. In 1946 the TT was slightly modified to cut production costs, and its manufacture in USSR finally ceased circa 1952, with the adoption of the more modern 9mm Makarov PM pistol. However, TT served with the Soviet Army well until 1960s, and with the Soviet Militia (Police) - until 1970s. During late 1940s and 1950s USSR also supplied some of its new allies from Warsaw pact with licenses to manufacture TT, and it was produced in China, Hungary, North Korea, Poland, Romania and Yugoslavia, in more or less original forms. Most military TT pistols of non-Soviet manufacture were also in 7.62mm, with some commercial export versions available in 9x19mm Luger, and fitted with some sorts of manual safety.

    For its time Tokarev TT was a formidable weapon, with good penetration and effective range. It was of good reliability and easy to maintain. What it lacked most was the manual safety, and its grip shape was not too comfortable.

    The Tokarev TT is a short recoil operated, locked breech pistol. It uses Browning swinging link system, borrowed from the Colt M1911 pistol, modified to simplify production. The single action trigger had no safeties, other than disconnector to prevent out-of-battery fire, and a half-cock notch on the hammer. The only safe way to carry TT was to always have an empty chamber. The hammer unit was made as a single unit, easily detachable for cleaning and maintenance. Some years later Swiss designer Charles Petter developed similar system for the French Mle. 1935 pistol. Steel magazine held 8 cartridges. Fixed sights were factory zeroed for 25 meters. Grip panels were usually made of plastic or wood (wartime production).

    --
    by R,K, Campbell

    photography by R.K. Campbell

    April 25, 2006






    For a handgun manufactured in the millions, the Tokarev is not well known in America. Yet, it should be better recognized. Here is a handgun that is a cousin to our own Colt 1911. The Tokarev obviously operates on Browning principles, but closer examination shows it is definitely patterned after earlier Browning efforts, notably the Colt Model 1903. The Soviet Socialist Republic was late in adopting a semi automatic pistol. The Nagant revolver was standard issue, but the Mauser broomhandle and its Bolo variant were also well received. (Bolo is short for Bolshevik.)

    Fedor Tokarev presented his pistol to the Revolutionary War Council in 1931. Favorably impressed, the council ordered 1,000 pistols for testing. The pistol was adopted as the 7.62mm pistolet obrazets 1930 goda or 7.62mm 1930 Model, also known as the TT 30. The pistol featured an exposed hammer with a solid burr, fixed sights, and definite Browning type operation and take down. The caliber has been subject to some discussion.

    There are those who have stated the .30 caliber pistol may have been adopted because the same reamer could of been used for lining rifle and pistol barrels. This does not make a lot of sense to me, I prefer to think the popularity of the 7.63mm Mauser cartridge and the Broomhandle pistol in Russia was the reason for adoption of this caliber. However, this may not be completely accurate either as the Tokarev pistol used a more lightly loaded cartridge. In any case, the Tokarev cartridge shot flat at long range, had adequate penetration of military web gear, and was an acceptable submachinegun cartridge.

    The pistol was given high marks in service for reliability and handling. It was light enough, and when a pistol was mainly a badge of office, used to direct troops and assert authority, it was as good as any other. The pistol underwent several changes during its long production life. Early pistols had a removable backstrap which was omitted in later production. Locking lugs were simplified as well. While Tokarev may have been aware of the Browning High Power, he did not go to angled camming surfaces but kept the swinging link of the original Browning designs. A removable, separate barrel bushing was also maintained. An improvement over the Browning design was the ability to remove the pistol's lockwork from the receiver. A step backwards was the elimination of any manual safety. The pistol is not safe to carry hammer down on a live round. The 1911 type half cock notch is maintained.

    Evidently the pistol gave good service during the Great Patriotic War. After the cessation of hostility, the pistol was manufactured in many satellite nations. These included Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, and Egypt. The Chinese and North Korean armies used the TT 30 in great number. Arab produced 9mm caliber Tokarevs known as the Tokegypt were held in great esteem by the Baeeder Meinhoff gang. These early terrorists were by and large Soviet sponsored, often trained at the infamous Patrice Lumumba in Moscow. These groups used the Makarov, CZ 52 and several Tokarev variants.

    It was inevitable, with the fall of the Berlin Wall, that communists in need of hard cash would sell their pistols to America. It was found the Tokarev was much more saleable in 9mm Luger caliber. It was a simple matter to rebarrel the pistol and supply appropriate magazines. The majority of Tokarev pistols for sale in the United States are Chinese variants in either caliber. A few Polish and other guns have been imported, including one curious version with a high capacity magazine. Upon examining the pistols, it is obvious that certain concessions were made to the US ‘points’ requirements for importation. An example is the Chinese 9mm that is the subject of this report. In order to secure approval for import-the import system giving points to good safety and target sights so as to preclude importing ‘Saturday Night Specials’-the pistol has been fitted with a manual safety. It goes the wrong way for rapid manipulation and only blocks the hammer, but it is there. Some are trigger locks, and there are several types. For practical purposes I ignore them and never carry a Tokarev chamber loaded.

    The grips are black plastic with the stylized Chinese star very evident. The pistol appeared as new. The fit and finish were adequate if not up to the example of the several Viet Cong Tokarevs I have examined. Two eight round magazines accompanied the pistol.

    Ammunition selection was not difficult, as inexpensive 9mm Luger ammunition is plentiful. Feed reliability has always been good with the original caliber. I have successfully handloaded both hollowpoint and flat softpoint ammunition in the .30 Mauser as we used to call it. The bottle neck round feeds any reasonable bullet style easily. This is the reason most military calibers are bottlenecked. I did not expect the Tokarev to feed hollowpoint ammunition, and my assumptions proved correct. There are several hollowpoint loads which have an excellent reputation for feeding in military handguns. They achieve this by means of a rolled over, round nose like feed profile. The bullet ogive is quite round. These rounds usually stopped on the feed ramp and would not feed the first round. I did manage to hand feed the first cartridge into the chamber and get a full magazine once, but this is not to be counted on. The Tokarev feeds ball ammunition and nothing else.

    The Tokarev is heavy enough for a 9mm Luger but has a slim grip. You would expect it to recoil sharply. The opposite was true. This is a very mild shooting gun. To begin the evaluation, I lightly lubed the gun with Birchwood Casey gun oil and set a Kandel instant recognition target at ten yards. In keeping with the budget theme of the test, I loaded both magazines with Wolf Russian ball ammunition. All I knew about the ammunition was that it was cheap. After the test, my opinion was modified. This is affordable, inexpensive ammunition that gives good results. I fired fifty rounds for function. Every round fed, chambered, fed and ejected normally. The sights were well regulated, with most groups clustering into an inch or a little more at this range. The Tokarev trigger compression has shown six pounds on my RCBS trigger pull gauge. I found it free of creep and easy to use well. Next I fired at a number of Law Enforcement, Incorporated silhouette targets. At combat ranges, five to fifteen yards, the Tokarev gave excellent results. It was quite easy to put a full magazine into the X ring of a man sized target, even firing with one hand. The pistol is mild to fire, well balanced, and fast handling.

    For the final test I settled to the bench rest and fired three five shot groups with Black Hills 124 grain full metal case ammunition. I was rewarded with a best effort of five rounds in a three inch group. This pistol is more than accurate enough for casual shooting or even defense if it were called upon.

    As a service gun, the Tokarev was superior to most European pistols of its day.

    It has a reputation for reliability equal to other Browning pistols. It has several drawbacks as a personal defense gun. Feed reliability is good in the original caliber, but the pistol could be considered for defense use only with special loadings. A sixty grain hollowpoint at fourteen hundred feet per second might serve, but I prefer a subsonic .45 caliber cartridge. In 9mm Luger, the pistol will not feed ANY type of hollowpoint. This would be a straightforward modification to cure this defect. The feed ramp could be polished and recontoured this is not something most users will wish to do on a budget pistol. For the fellow who has a good reliable Tokarev—and I am pretty certain unserviceable Chinese variants have been delivered- the Cor Bon PowRBall load is the only choice. This 100 grain bullet breaks 1,400 fps or a bit more from most 9mm pistols. The bullet is completely roundnose in profile, with a polymer ball to insure perform feed and also to instigate expansion as this ball is forced into the bullet on impact. Expansion testing shows the PowRBall load a very good one.

    So, back to the wall, the Tokarev might meet a minimal defensive standard. However, the safety is an insurmountable problem.

    I find the Tokarev an interesting pistol, one that the student of handgun history should have in his collection.

    Notes
    In the original caliber, Winchester now offers 7.62 Tokarev loadings, an excellent choice for informal target practice. The Tokarev is a fun pistol, ruggedly made if not usually executed with good fit and finish.

    Type Single Action
    Caliber 7.62 x 25 mm or 9mm Luger
    Sights Fixed
    Barrel length 4.5"
    Overall length 7.7"
    Weight 30 ounces
    Magazine Capacity 8



    R.K. Campbell

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TT_pistol

    CZ time:

    http://www.makarov.com/cz52/index.html

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    Re: Tokarev tt33 vs CZ 52

    I like the fact that the CZ52 has a de-cocking function on the safety. It was designed to have a safety, as well. It also seems a bit more ergonomic, and has a ready after market to supply quality firing pins and springs, as well as nicer grips.
    "The past is another country, he did things differently there."

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    Re: Tokarev tt33 vs CZ 52

    You got the Tokarev's history down Qwiks, but you should throw up the cz 52's for good measure. I could give the cliff notes version but it wouldn't do the pistol justice. As an aside there were a few Chinese Tokarevs imported here in the early 90's that were chambered for 9mm nato. These were manufactured purely for the commercial market and if you can find one in good condition it's a collector piece since Clinton banned their importation along with the Chinese SKS's. Of course I don't have any guns from china for purely political reasons. As with any Chinese Tokarevs chambered for whatever, you should get them checked out before you shoot them. Also as a historical note the Tokarevs were the pistol of choice for tankers during the great patriotic war because they were slimmer than that of the nagant and easier to get in and out of the tank with, also they were easier to shoot out of the tank slits at fleeing Germans. Balistically the 7.62x25 hardball might not compare to a .45, but it is still encountered in parts of the world where shooting at people is more of an everyday fact of life, while not ideal I would hardly feel inadaquately armed with one. Just be sure of you backstop.

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    Re: Tokarev tt33 vs CZ 52

    vz. 52
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    • Interested in contributing to Wikipedia? •Jump to: navigation, search
    Vz. 52, CZ 482, CZ-52

    vz. 52 Pistol
    Type Semi-automatic pistol
    Place of origin Czechoslovakia
    Service history
    In service 1952-1982 (Czechoslovakia)
    Production history
    Designer Jan Kratochvíl, Jaroslav Kratochvíl
    Designed 1952
    Number built c. 200,000
    Variants NA
    Specifications
    Weight 0.95 kg (2.09 lb)
    Length 209 mm (8.22 in)
    Barrel length 120 mm (4.72 in)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Cartridge 7.62x25mm
    Action Short Recoil (Roller locked)
    Rate of fire NA
    Muzzle velocity 500 m/s (1640 ft/s)
    Effective range 50 m (54.6 yd)
    Feed system 8 rounds, detachable box magazine, single column
    Sights Rear: Fixed notch (dovetailed); front: fixed blade
    The vz. 52[1] (also known as CZ 482 or CZ-52) is a semi-automatic pistol designed by two brothers, Jan and Jaroslav Kratochvíl, in the early 1950s for Czechoslovakian military. Around 200,000 vz. 52s ("vzor 52" means "model of 1952") were made by Česká Zbrojovka in Strakonice from 1952 to 1954. It replaced the 7.65mm Browning caliber (.32 ACP) Vz.50, which had acquired a reputation for unreliability and also was underpowered for its role as a military service sidearm. The vz. 52 was, after 30 years of military service, eventually replaced in service by the vz. 82.

    Contents [hide]
    1 Description
    2 Operation
    3 Ammunition
    4 Common issues
    5 References
    6 External links



    [edit] Description
    The vz. 52 pistol is a roller-locked short recoil-operated, detachable box magazine-fed, single-action, semi-automatic pistol firing the 7.62x25mm cartridge. It weighs approximately two pounds when unloaded. Military models feature either a parkerized finish or a gray oxide coating, while some vz. 52s have been arsenal refinished blue. This was done to a number of pistols that were factory rearsenaled in the 1970s. Rearsenaled guns are usually marked as so.

    The vz. 52 is considered by some to be somewhat ungainly to hold (due primarily to its deep (front-to-back) but slim (side-to-side) grip, as well as the low "hump" meeting the web of the hand at the rear of the grip. These unusual ergonomics cause the barrel and slide to sit rather high above the grip. This causes recoil force to be turned into upward flip of the muzzle and torque on the wrist, doing nothing to improve the comfort of the shooter or the controllability of the gun. The vz. 52 is also well known for its very sharp report and the great amount of muzzle flash it produces. Nevertheless, many consider it a reliable and remarkably powerful weapon.


    [edit] Operation
    Operating controls of the vz. 52 consist of a single-action trigger, an external hammer, a magazine catch located at the heel of the grip frame, and a combination de-cock/safety lever located on the left side of the receiver behind the left grip panel. The manual safety blocks movement of the sear, preventing the hammer from releasing and so firing a round. A second safety in the form of a spring-loaded firing pin block prevents the pistol from firing unless the trigger is pulled to the rear, rendering the pistol "drop safe". Because the sear must overcome the additional spring pressure of the firing pin block, an unusually heavy trigger pull results, often in the range of 8-10 pounds. The hammer is of the rebounding type, meaning that it does not contact the firing pin while in its uncocked position and cannot do so unless the trigger is pulled, another safety feature.

    When a full magazine is inserted, the slide is retracted then released, cocking the hammer and collecting a cartridge from the magazine and inserting it into the chamber. Rotating the safety lever fully downward, exposing a red dot between the receiver and hammer pivot pin, renders the pistol ready to fire. Rotating the safety lever upward, covering the red dot, engages the sear block (allowing "cocked and locked" carry), and rotating the safety lever fully upward decocks the hammer by releasing the sear and intercepting the hammer's rotation. This allows safe carry of the pistol with a round in the chamber. The hammer must then be cocked manually and the safety disengaged before a round can be fired. As the trigger is pulled in this state, the trigger bar rotates the sear, a lug on the sear disengages the firing pin safety located directly above it, and the opposite side of the sear releases the hammer. The hammer impacts the firing pin, the firing pin impacts the primer of the cartridge and the shot is fired.

    The vz. 52 utilizes a fairly uncommon short recoil operating system in which a pair of vertical rollers are used to lock the barrel and slide together, via a cam block. This is similar to the system used in the MG 42 machine gun which itself hearkens back to a Polish patent of the 1930s. It results in an unusually strong lockup which allowed the Czechs to load ammunition for it to higher pressure levels (and therefore, higher velocity and energy) than compatible ammunition manufactured in other Warsaw Pact countries.

    While in battery, the recoil spring, positioned coaxially around the barrel, provides the pressure necessary to lock the barrel and slide together via the rollers. When a shot is fired, the barrel and slide recoil together while the cam block is held stationary by a lug in the receiver. After traveling rearward a short distance (about 0.16" or 4mm), the rollers are allowed to disengage from the slide via recesses in the cam block. At this point, the slide is free to continue rearward, cocking the hammer, extracting the spent case from the barrel's chamber and ejecting it clear of the pistol. After reaching the end of its stroke, the slide is returned to battery by the compressed recoil spring, again collecting a fresh cartridge from the magazine and inserting it into the chamber along the way.

    When the magazine is empty, its follower presses against a catch, holding the slide open. The magazine catch is located at the heel of the pistol grip, in the common European position. It is pulled toward the backstrap, releasing the magazine from its well. A potential problem arises in that there is now minimal pressure on the magazine spring and the magazine catch is also under constant pressure from the mainspring, forcing it into contact with the rear of the magazine. This means that magazines do not drop free and occasionally take a few seconds to remove from the pistol. Releasing the slide catch is done by removing the empty magazine (or inserting a loaded one), retracting the slide and releasing it. There is no thumb-operated lever to release the slide (though an aftermarket slide release lever is available).


    [edit] Ammunition
    The vz. 52 fires a particularly hot loading of the 7.62x25mm cartridge developed in Czechoslovakia, designated M48. It is often referred to simply as the "Czech Load". This is an 85 grain (5.5 g) FMJ bullet fired at 1,640 ft/s (500 m/s), 18% faster than the stated velocity of the common Soviet load. The Czechoslovak load gives both an unusually flat trajectory and a relatively high penetrative power for a handgun.

    Surplus 7.62x25mm Tokarev ammo from China, Russia, Austria, Bulgaria, and the Czech Republic as well as current commercial ammo produced by Sellier & Bellot all measured 42,000 c.u.p. at the lab at Accurate Arms in 2000 by ballistician Ted Curtis. He measured the surplus Soviet ammunition the late 1990s, after the popularity of the surplus vz. 52 had started to increase, and hollow-point ammunition in 7.62x25mm became available from custom shops. The pistol proved capable of handling extremely "hot" loadings, and many shops sell custom or hand-loaded ammunition.

    Replacement barrels are available to change the caliber to 9 mm Parabellum. Doing so provides a much wider range of ammunition choices. Currently, manufacturers have ceased production of 9mm drop-in barrels for the vz. 52.


    [edit] Common issues
    This section is written like an advertisement.
    Please help rewrite this section from a neutral point of view.
    (May 200

    It is possible for old, worn vz. 52s to fire accidentally when using the decocker. The safest way to decock the hammer would be to first clear the weapon, then thumb-decock the hammer, precluding the use of the decocker entirely. Testing for a bad decocker can be accomplished by clearing the weapon, dropping an undersized wooden dowel (0.25") down the barrel, cocking the hammer, holding the pistol muzzle-up, then decocking. If the dowel moves at all (it may be fully ejected from the barrel), the hammer and/or safety lever needs to be replaced.
    The firing pin is made of cast steel and is subject to breakage if dry-fired. Dry-firing (that is, letting the hammer fall while the chamber is empty) should be avoided if at all possible. Fortunately for owners of the vz. 52, new tempered steel firing pins are available. However, dry firing the vz. 52 is still not recommended. Although the aftermarket pins are hardened, they are NOT break proof. Dry firing an aftermarket pin will eventually lead to it breaking just as it would the original firing pin.
    Korean-made rollers for aftermarket barrels are made of softer steel and tend to wear out quickly. Hardened aftermarket rollers are available.
    While the proper method of removing the barrel from the slide requires a cylindrical tool (such as a pin punch or a Philip's head screwdriver) the barrel is also slotted so that it may be removed using the magazine floorplate as a field expedient. However, this practice often results in damage to the magazine floorplates (bending) and it is not terribly uncommon for these abused floorplates to "let go" in the middle of a shooting session. The result is quite disappointing--the spring and ammunition falls out of the magazine leaving the gun empty. Aftermarket replacement magazines are available, as are replacement floorplates for the issue magazines.
    The slim design of the vz. 52 results in necessarily thin chamber walls. While the pistol's robust breech locking system will allow the gun to tolerate a steady diet of heavy 7.62x25mm ammunition that might prematurely wear out other designs, the thin chamber walls mean that handloaders should take precautions when developing loads for use in this pistol.

    [edit] References
    ^ Předpis pro výcvik ve střelbě - 7,62 mm pistole vz. 52, Pěch III-140, Ministerstvo národní obrany, Praha, 1953

    [edit] External links
    Wikimedia Commons has media related to:
    CZ 52Vz 52 manual
    Disassembly Instructions
    Pictorial guide to the Vz. 52 pistol
    CZ-52 Pistol Exploded Parts Diagram
    The CZ-52 Pistol
    Modern Firearms
    The Czech roller-locking hot shot
    A customized CZ52 to Czech out
    Pistole vz. 52 (in Czech)
    CZ-52 Shooting Range Video and Review
    Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8CZ_vz._52"
    Categories: 7.62 mm firearms | Czech semi-autom

    There you go,Ace. Got the history.

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    Re: Tokarev tt33 vs CZ 52

    If you get the Tokarev you need to pay attention to the 7.62x25 ammo you are buying since the stuff made for the czech has the exact same dimensions, but they can produce way more pressure than the tokarev could handle which has been known to cause catastrophic failure.
    hmmm I actually heard/(read?) the opposite. Never owned one so don't know if it's true... but Tokarev is basically a simplified 1911, so it should be a strong platform.

    Here in Canada we can still get Norinco's and last year they were selling new Tokarevs with 2 barrels; 7.62 and 9mm for $199. I kinda regret not getting one...

    ps: if anyone wants to see what Norincos are availabe here check marstar.ca
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    Re: Tokarev tt33 vs CZ 52

    Actually saw a bit of "conventional wisdom' that was saying while the Tok and CZ shoot hot ammo that because of thier age to be careful. There might be some truth in that. How much might be hard to say, but can't be totally ignored.

    Saw the same stuff about the 7.62 Czech ammo being too much for some of the guns out there.

    Wish we had some data on pressures or other such stuff to be able to judge things by.

 

 
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