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Pistol AR's

15K views 223 replies 29 participants last post by  GreenWolf70 
#1 ·
I've been eyeing the pistol AR a lot for the last few years and now that I find myself back in a gun friendly state, thinking about making the jump. It seems to me that an AR pistol with a "brace" has a lot more real world application to me than something significantly longer like a full length AR or rifle, especially in urban and indoor scenarios. Currently I have my eye on the Springfield Armory Saint in 300 BO and am wondering how many here have any experience with pistol AR's and what their opinions might be on the subject?



The reviews on it are pretty glaringly positive, and the price tag isn't bad at all.
 
#2 ·
Jump on it. The KAK braces are fantastic and really help with pistol shooting stability. I love mine. Super handy size for what you end up with. I found the original Sig brace, while innovative, was far too unwieldy and cumbersome and heavy. There's some other braces out there but I only know/experience the KAK which is light and flat profile. I really like it.

Keep in mind that some owners report reliability of cycling suffers with barrels under 10" so I'd stick with 10" or prepare to make mods to ensure reliability.
 
#3 ·
Jump on it. The KAK braces are fantastic and really help with pistol shooting stability. I love mine. Super handy size for what you end up with. I found the original Sig brace, while innovative, was far too unwieldy and cumbersome and heavy. There's some other braces out there but I only know/experience the KAK which is light and flat profile. I really like it.

Keep in mind that some owners report reliability of cycling suffers with barrels under 10" so I'd stick with 10" or prepare to make mods to ensure reliability.
That was a big factor of my looking at the 300 as opposed to the .223, as the 300 seems to work well and burns its powder in much shorter barrels reliably compared to the .223 which needs a lot more runway to not only get down range with good ballistics, but also create enough gas for pressure to make the firearm function properly.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I don't own an AR Pistol, but I doubt that will stop anyone else from posting, so I'd like to take this opportunity to preemptively address many of the things the common nay-sayer who also doesn't own an AR Pistol will likely tell you. (Not that there are necessarily any nay-sayers here, in general this is a pretty relaxed place, but still...)

The AR Pistol in my opinion seems like an extremely handy weapon for self-defense in just about any urban environment and perhaps some rural environments as well depending on what it is chambered in. The shorter OAL makes it much more maneuverable, not to mention easier to store/deploy than a full-length AR, the lack of a stock isn't necessarily all that much of a drawback depending on the chambering, and the shorter barrel won't necessarily subtract all that much velocity or energy from the bullet depending on the chambering.
.300 AAC Blackout in particular seems like a fine choice for an AR Pistol since the heavier bullet and lower operational pressure of the cartridge ought to help mitigate any potential losses you may receive from the shorter barrel vs 5.56x45 NATO or 7.62x39.

Some folks may argue that AR Pistols are a poor choice and that you're better off with a full-size AR with an adjustable stock, particularly due to the paranoid belief that any day now the ATF is totally going to reclassify AR Pistols with braces attached SBRs, or otherwise exaggerations regarding how much of a difference 4"-8" of barrel makes.
 
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#5 ·
AR Pistols are more practical for the Commonwealth person. The 5.56 mm can be much louder, though.

If you have a suppressor the 300 AAC/Blackout is the best choice.

They make Pistol braces and adapters that outclass rifles or SBRs. The only NFA item I do are suppressors.


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#6 ·
The Sig Braces have come very far over the last two years. They offer much more proper surface area than the thin KAK, should it somehow come in contact with one's shoulder ;), and they have adjustable ones now also. AR Pistol is a superb SD gun. The sky seems to be about the only limit these days when it comes to setting one up.

Gun Firearm Airsoft gun Air gun Room
 
#8 ·
Recently I bought a 7.62x39 AR carbine from PSA that uses AK mags and have seriously considered getting a AR pistol in 7.62x39. For myself, iron sights don't work as well as red dots on my AR pistols. A combination red dot and laser is even better.
 
#11 ·
I also grabbed the PSA 10.5" AR chambered in 300 AAC. It has a KAK brace and a KAK flash can which adds another 3.5" approx to the barrel. There is a shorter can which I will be looking to buy at some point. With the added length it almost makes the pistol concept negligible, but shooting it without the can is not an option for flash and sound. The KAK brace is not so comfy to shoot with and the gun doesn't get out to the range that often. I own it for a possible time when the BATFE regulations no longer apply and it will be reborn as a SBR.

It is a reloader's gun IMO, with the ability to produce your own brass and tailor your loads for accuracy and performance.
 
#12 ·
Tried to chime in earlier and something happened :eek: (not sure what, but I had a brilliant dissertation composed and the site/my browser froze up!)

So to now echo what others have said, in an AR pistol and in my opinion, .300BLK is the only real way to go due primarily to ballistics. The rounds are typically loaded with a medium burn-rate magnum type powder and achieve full burn in about 8". Due to this, the rounds lose very little velocity in a shorter barrel and within 200-300 yards deliver more energy than a .223 - which loses a significant amount of velocity from a 10" barrel, and also produces one heck of a fireball.

Secondarily, if you reload, you can get your price per round down to about $0.12 - $0.15 per round for plinking purposes. I typically shoot powder/polymer coated lead bullets of varying weights at around 1600-1800 fps that are accurate and cost about $0.08/bullet. You also only need about 13-18gn per round of most powders which also saves some $$. Additionally, creating your own brass from .223 brass with very little effort saves even more cash.

Finally, I have seen the KAK Shockwave mentioned in this thread. I have it on both my .300BLK pistols and do like it in principle, BUT I can also attest that if you shoot more than about 100 rounds at a sitting (and you probably will because these things are FUN!) then you may want to look at the SB Tactical SBR3 adjustable pistol brace. It's considerably more expensive than the Shockwave, but works on a regular carbine 6 position buffer tube instead and provides much more surface area at the shoulder. I tested about 200 rounds of various bullet types and charges - the recoil became uncomfortable somewhere after 100 rounds and left a bruise by the time I was done for the day (not a large one but it was definitely noticeable.

Firearm Gun Trigger Rifle Assault rifle
 
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#13 ·
The other HUGE advantage of an AR Pistol is that it's not a rifle. Therefore in most areas of legal carry, it can be carried concealed and loaded. Unlike a rifle which cannot be carried or transported loaded, in most areas. A huge factor for consideration.
 
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#14 ·
That "in most areas" differs state by state (Indiana, for instance, has no such law).

As for concealed carry? Only by wearing a trench coat...I'd love to see someone try IWB carry with even an 8" AR pistol....and a 30 round mag :D
 
#17 ·
I was asked to build a 10.5" barreled 5.56mm AR pistol for someone and when I tested it, it was the loudest rifle I have ever shot and it ripped a long flame too. I was wearing ear plugs with ear phones over the top and firing that gun still made my ears ring. I would not want to shoot it inside a closed in space, like my home. Personally, I like .300 BLK subs for SD in the home. I have a nice little 8.5" barrel .300BLK AR pistol setup for subs and without a suppressor it is still much quieter than a .22LR. BTW, if you get an AR Pistol in .300BLK make sure you get the pistol length gas. And anything with a short barrel, I would advise using a flash can. It is too easy to lose a finger with a birdcage or other comp. The flash can directs everything forward, including most of the noise.

Personally, ARs are at the point that brand names are pretty much meaningless and if you can put Legos together, you can build an AR. Kits in a number of forms are pretty cheap. The only thing that is required to go through a FFL is the lower receiver.

Now as far as braces, I like the ShockWave with their KAK buffer tube. The tube has set points that will allow you to lock the ShockWave into position with its set screw without harming the tube. I have an early model Sig and it is heavy and only has one position (short). I have not tried the newer SB braces, but the cost is high IMO. None of the AR pistols I have shot have enough recoil to make the ShockWave uncomfortable, even with extended shooting.

I haven't seen anyone talking about it here, but PCC ARs are now developed to the point where you can build a reliable weapon from parts. I have 2 AR9s, one that uses Colt 9mm mags and the other uses Glock mags. The Colt mags one locks back after the last round, and the Glock one does not, sort of like the difference between a AR and an AK. They both work, just a little different. Also, if you have any aspirations of getting a suppressor, get a handguard with 1.5" ID. I usually get my hand guard a little longer than my barrel so that 3" flash can only peeks out an inch or two. With a 1.5" inside diameter HG your suppressor can connect under the HG and look more finished. I have a 9" hand guard on one of my AR9s with a 7.5" barrel, so the flash can sticks out about 1.5" and has a very intimidating look.

While I am thinking about suppressors, don't get a quick connect, it really is a waste of money. Every time you remove the suppressor and remount it, it will require being rezero'd, that includes when you remove it for cleaning. Also, most suppressors have varying degrees of blow back. If you are a lefty, like me, that means it will hit you in the face and on the right arm. There are a couple of designs that eliminate blow back and there are also a few over the barrel designs that essentially shorten the length of your gun with a suppressor mounted.
 
#20 ·
Length of barrel versus length of gas port is a question of dwell time, in general, the shorter the barrel the shorter the distance to the gas needs to be. This is regardless of what cartridge you are planning on shooting, as long as it has a gas port. Adjustable gas blocks can turn down the amount of gas only, so too much gas is not a problem while too little is catastrophic (action will fail to function and your gun becomes a single shot). Also, if you go for a suppressor, make sure your gas block adjusts from the side. It is difficult to adjust a front adjustable gas block with the suppressor sitting in front of it.

If you want to have the versatility to shoot subs with the .300BLK, the only option is the pistol length gas port, even then the port itself will need to be a bit larger than normal. I think the one on my sub gun is .125". I have a carbine length gas, 16" barrel .300BLK and it will only shoot subs in single shot mode. It just can not get enough gas to function. The thing I like about adjustable gas blocks is that once you have narrowed down what you will be shooting through the gun, you can tune it for best performance. I use a low profile adjustable gas block by BTE to costs $36 delivered. It comes with instructions on how to tune it.

Reliability in a short barrel setup is a question of getting the gun setup to function correctly and operate with enough gas pressure.

If you are reloading subs, the issue is always getting enough gas pressure to function. Most people have been going for heavier bullets as the solution, but if you are reloading lighter bullets for a subsonic load, know that gas pressure will be your biggest issue. There are a number of ways to adjust for this, such as shorter OAL, faster powder, etc., but the easiest method is to get a heavier bullet. There is also a hardware solution of a lighter weight drivetrain, i.e., lightweight BCG, light buffer, weaker buffer spring. But like I said, just going to a heavier bullet is the easiest, and cheapest method.

If you go with a PCC setup, no worries about dwell time because they are blow backs, so no gas system to worry about.
 
#22 ·
Many of the issues with short barrels in AR have been worked out. When I built my first .300BLK, carbine length gas ports were common and pistol length were hard to find. Now it is the opposite. I think it is the overall versatility, or rather the wide range of bullet weights, of the .300BLK that can make it a bit finicky. Personally, that is why I advocate an adjustable gas block. It makes it possible to fine tune your gas system to the particular cartridge you are shooting. If you are shooting supers with a .300BLK with a pistol length gas port, it will be very harsh on the operating system. An adjustable gas block gives you the ability to turn down the gas for those super loads without losing the capability to run subs.

If you are having issues with a sub load that run well in one of your AR, but not in another, it is probably tied up in the weight of the drive train, i.e., BCG, Buffer and Spring, or you may just have a smaller size gas port on that longer barrel.
 
#23 ·
Many of the issues with short barrels in AR have been worked out. When I built my first .300BLK, carbine length gas ports were common and pistol length were hard to find. Now it is the opposite. I think it is the overall versatility, or rather the wide range of bullet weights, of the .300BLK that can make it a bit finicky. Personally, that is why I advocate an adjustable gas block. It makes it possible to fine tune your gas system to the particular cartridge you are shooting. If you are shooting supers with a .300BLK with a pistol length gas port, it will be very harsh on the operating system. An adjustable gas block gives you the ability to turn down the gas for those super loads without losing the capability to run subs.

If you are having issues with a sub load that run well in one of your AR, but not in another, it is probably tied up in the weight of the drive train, i.e., BCG, Buffer and Spring, or you may just have a smaller size gas port on that longer barrel.
Funny thing is that I have one on each of my pistols but just didn't fiddle with it since I was shooting a wider variety of different bullets and loads and didn't feel like adjusting it for every other run :D.

Most likely that was the reason for my discomfort...
 
#25 ·
If you build your own, you can use pistol calibers instead of rifle calibers. All in all I think the pistol calibers make a better CQB (down the hall) weapon.

This is my 9mm Colt pattern AR pistol. I'm also planning a 45acp upper.

Gun Firearm Trigger Assault rifle Rifle
 
#28 · (Edited)
If you build your own, you can use pistol calibers instead of rifle calibers. All in all I think the pistol calibers make a better CQB (down the hall) weapon.

This is my 9mm Colt pattern AR pistol. I'm also planning a 45acp upper.

View attachment 437115
If you are using that red dot with such a low mount, you are probably squinting with one eye. Add a 1" riser (UTG/Leapers makes a good one for about $10, https://www.midwayusa.com/product/9...atinny-style-riser-mount-ar-15-flat-top-matte). It will allow you to hold your head a little higher and focus on the target with both eyes, rather than trying to look through the red dot that low.

Just a personal thing with me, but on any short barrel where my hand is anywhere close to the muzzle, I go with a flash can for safety.
 
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#26 ·
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#27 ·
My AR pistol in .300BLK.

Gun Firearm Rifle Trigger Assault rifle


My PCC AR pistols

Firearm Gun Trigger Assault rifle Rifle


Changed the optic on the top 9mm Colt style AR Pistol to a Holosun HS515c and both now have lasers mounted on the off hand side just in front of where I hold, so I can switch it off or on as needed. Nothing worse than rounding a corner and your laser precedes you.
 
#32 ·
I'm looking to build an AR pistol in .300 BLK. I already have the lower and LPK, now I need the buffer/brace and an upper. I like the prices for the PSA uppers but they don't have any in 10.5". I was originally thinking of going with a 8.5" barrel but I've had a few customers at work advocate for the slightly longer barrel. What's the opinion of this august group?

Also, if I had the money, I'd like to go with a Dead Foot Arms Modified Cycle System. It allows for either a much shorter buffer tube or a folding stock/brace that can be fired folded. You can see it here: https://deadfootarms.com/ar15-folding-stock-adaptor-kits/
 
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#33 ·
I went with a 10.5 for my first - that seems to be the break point for performance vs. mobility with the 300BLK cartridge. I also waited forever for PSA to get their 10.5" uppers in stock and ended up building my own using an Anderson upper and gas tube from Primary arms (think I got a stripped upper) and a barrel from a place that is now, apparently, defunct (Classic Firearms has 4 left in stock). and a gas block and hand guard from ebay.

Shoots great!

I went with the KAK Shockwave brace and tube which can also be found on Ebay, generally cheaper than from other places.
 
#34 ·
I built my upper. It has Aero Precision upper receiver, 10" Samson Evolution handguard, 7.5" Ballistic Advantage barrel (that is the same as everyone else's 8.5" barrel), BTE adjustable gas block, Nitrided MILSPEC BCG, and a Troy Claymore flash can that protrudes maybe a 1/2" past the handguard. Lower is an old Sig pistol brace, PSA buffer and tube, Aero Precision Gen2 lower with a MILSPEC trigger that I buffed out.

All I shoot out of this AR Pistol are subs. Since it is a short barrel and I reload, I load a little hotter while keeping it subsonic, no flash and it is relatively quiet without a silencer. I run 10.0 grains of W296 behind a 208 grain Hornady A-Max. It is great for a home defense gun as I do not feel the need for hearing protection if I get up in the middle of the night.

My other .300BLK has a 16" barrel and carbine length gas and I only shoot supers through it.

If you are shooting commercial sub loads only, 10.5" may give you a little over a 8.5" barrel as the commercial ammo is usually setup to stay subsonic in a 16" barrel. But really shouldn't be an issue if you reload. All the powder is typically burned before it exits my 8.5" barrel, so I don't think the 10.5" has better innate accuracy. JMHO.
 
#35 ·
I built my upper. It has Aero Precision upper receiver, 10" Samson Evolution handguard, 7.5" Ballistic Advantage barrel (that is the same as everyone else's 8.5" barrel), BTE adjustable gas block, Nitrided MILSPEC BCG, and a Troy Claymore flash can that protrudes maybe a 1/2" past the handguard. Lower is an old Sig pistol brace, PSA buffer and tube, Aero Precision Gen2 lower with a MILSPEC trigger that I buffed out.

All I shoot out of this AR Pistol are subs. Since it is a short barrel and I reload, I load a little hotter while keeping it subsonic, no flash and it is relatively quiet without a silencer. I run 10.0 grains of W296 behind a 208 grain Hornady A-Max. It is great for a home defense gun as I do not feel the need for hearing protection if I get up in the middle of the night.

My other .300BLK has a 16" barrel and carbine length gas and I only shoot supers through it.

If you are shooting commercial sub loads only, 10.5" may give you a little over a 8.5" barrel as the commercial ammo is usually setup to stay subsonic in a 16" barrel. But really shouldn't be an issue if you reload. All the powder is typically burned before it exits my 8.5" barrel, so I don't think the 10.5" has better innate accuracy. JMHO.
I don't think that 10" gives any more or less accuracy than the 8.5". Just a wee bit more velocity :)
 
#36 ·
Like I said, if you reload it is not an issue.
 
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#38 ·
I built a 7.5" 300 blackout, put an SBA3 brace on it (it's adjustable) along with a holosun holographic site, oh and it's side charging. Cool pistol, fun to shoot.
 
#39 ·
thats much like what I got coming an nearly the same setup that was suggested for me to use.
so I went with that , then I can blame you guys for any problems that I have or don't like!
I like to be able to point the finger of blame!!!
yuose got 2 have a plan in place!
 

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#40 · (Edited)
Wow, you are beginning to sound like a Democrat.

LOL, so you went ahead and ordered the PSA, nice?

BTW, have I ever steered you wrong?
 
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#41 ·
NO not so far. I still enjoy the PT1911AL, oh sorry I forgot that's a sensitive subject for you!
yea the FFL called me this morning and asked to come get this ugly thing out of his shop, said it was scaring babies walking by!
7.5 inch barrel, 300 ACC Blackout.
seems well made and most of the hardware seems to be Mag pul--but I aint that familiar with this stuff.
and thanks for the help!
 

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#42 ·


This is my 300 AAC/Blackout. I only shoot subsonics out of it.



This is my 5.56 mm AR Pistol



This is my IMI Kidon Pistol Conversion on the left and my 9mm Glock Mag Atheris Rifle Co AR Pistol. Both shoot suppressed, also.


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