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    Recent Police Killings?

    Police killing citizens.

    Is 'killings' a fair term?

    I am not excessively informed so give me some latitude here. I also am not a cop but like most people I've had a handful of friends that are. I have had one friend murdered in uniform. I can only imagine how tuff the job is. One couldn't handle the gore of auto wrecks, most of my friends seemed to have the servant attitude but one would be described as 'on a power trip' and another was of the opinion that the partner relationship and professional courtesy had no bounds.

    So the Atlanta deal looks to be 1st or second degree murder and the Minneapolis 2nd or manslaughter. The second officer watching IMO is an accessory, the other two, I have no opinion. These don't look to be like some from 3-6 years ago where the cops had a good argument and politics took over. Please don't blame Trump people, that is foolish. If the major and the Governor can't handle it then the feds have responsibility right?

    As a person uneducated in the law it does seem ridiculous that no arrests have been made in Minneapolis but maybe it takes some time to get evidence and you surely don't want a case lost on a technicality. The mob wants the cops hung before sundown but that is not America either.

    Many of these issues are first at the level of the mayors, is that fair to say?

    These officers, white in this case, but lets be general, did not wake up that day and become bullies, racists, whatever. I'm thinking their wife didn't just leave them that morning. They gave signals at the station and to the public at large prior to the killing. To me that makes the precinct leader and the precinct culture of interest. If the major is not capable then governors should step in? I'm not asking for a political witch hunt just some semblance of truth and communication that the leadership has some responsibility.


    I also have black friends and they can tell many stories of being followed and pulled over for no reason other than black, wrong part of town, maybe old car. I have never been pulled over for no reason. There should be a way to safely and fairly report officers. I'd not want unfair discipline but if there was a trend in the 'data' perhaps some training or corrective action is in order.

    So can we improve on weeding out bad officers...there are some. Maybe we have and some will always get thru...at least for a while.

    I just can't make up a story to defend these, they just look like clear injustice. Corona virus stress will not fly.
    Ralph_Kirk and 777Driver like this.
    http://www.mkgandhi.org/nonviolence/...he%20sword.htm

    ...When my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence. Gandhi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhugg View Post
    Police killing citizens.

    Is 'killings' a fair term?

    I am not excessively informed so give me some latitude here. I also am not a cop but like most people I've had a handful of friends that are. I have had one friend murdered in uniform. I can only imagine how tuff the job is. One couldn't handle the gore of auto wrecks, most of my friends seemed to have the servant attitude but one would be described as 'on a power trip' and another was of the opinion that the partner relationship and professional courtesy had no bounds.

    So the Atlanta deal looks to be 1st or second degree murder and the Minneapolis 2nd or manslaughter. The second officer watching IMO is an accessory, the other two, I have no opinion. These don't look to be like some from 3-6 years ago where the cops had a good argument and politics took over. Please don't blame Trump people, that is foolish. If the major and the Governor can't handle it then the feds have responsibility right?

    As a person uneducated in the law it does seem ridiculous that no arrests have been made in Minneapolis but maybe it takes some time to get evidence and you surely don't want a case lost on a technicality. The mob wants the cops hung before sundown but that is not America either.

    Many of these issues are first at the level of the mayors, is that fair to say?

    These officers, white in this case, but lets be general, did not wake up that day and become bullies, racists, whatever. I'm thinking their wife didn't just leave them that morning. They gave signals at the station and to the public at large prior to the killing. To me that makes the precinct leader and the precinct culture of interest. If the major is not capable then governors should step in? I'm not asking for a political witch hunt just some semblance of truth and communication that the leadership has some responsibility.


    I also have black friends and they can tell many stories of being followed and pulled over for no reason other than black, wrong part of town, maybe old car. I have never been pulled over for no reason. There should be a way to safely and fairly report officers. I'd not want unfair discipline but if there was a trend in the 'data' perhaps some training or corrective action is in order.

    So can we improve on weeding out bad officers...there are some. Maybe we have and some will always get thru...at least for a while.

    I just can't make up a story to defend these, they just look like clear injustice. Corona virus stress will not fly.
    I worked in LE for 25 years, have been retired about 15 years. Mainly traffic but also some time in supervision and then criminal and internal investigations. I'll try to hit some of your points, but first a few observations:

    It's a changed world from when I worked. Keep in mind as society changes, so does the pool of police applicants. I had a chief say many years ago he could not keep standards and fill an academy class. IMO, there has been a significant societal/moral decline during this time. Not to politicize it, but a key turning point IMO was when the president in the mid-90s was caught in decidedly immoral behavior, lied about it, and then was given a pass. If we cannot hold that person accountable, what lesson does it send to our kids? BTW, those kids then are all adults now. For equal time, elections during my lifetime have devolved into usually voting for the lesser of two evils, to include the current president- who nearly daily sets a poor example for our children in how he treats others. I heard a commentator say once that his goals are similar to those of President Reagan, but his way of attaining them are completely different. Contrast his pride with the self-depreciating humor of Ronald Reagan, and it is night and day. The last federal candidate I voted FOR is quoted in my signature (I still vote), and that was 8 years ago.

    There is far less respect for police than when I worked. Some- fortunately very little- of it is deserved.

    Police kill a black man, news event similar to a natural disaster- unless of course the officer was black. Meanwhile, thousands of black men kill other black men and read about the story on page 25 if at all. If you look at violent crime numbers, a hugely disproportionate amount is committed by blacks, usually against other blacks.

    Where I live, that holds true. About a dozen mainly black men are killed by gunfire each year, and in each case the killer was another black man. The research I've done shows that in over 3/4 of the cases, an illegally-possessed gun (in violation of existing laws) was used, but no one seems to care about that. A couple of years ago, two white women were killed by a white man and it was national news. What's really sad IMO is how so many give lip service to what Dr. King said about judging by the content of character, not the color of skin. So long as we continue to use inaccurate terms such as African-American (which is not a race), we continue to divide not unite. We live in these United States, and E Pluribus Unum still means out of many, one. More lip service to many. Our republican Florida governor recently touted one of his court appointments as being the first Caribbean-American to hold such a position. I LOL'd. My question- what were her qualifications? I really don't care about where she was born or the color of her skin.

    As with other things, the media coverage or lack of coverage fans the flames or places it into obscurity, and is used as a tool to further divide people. We live in a dumbed-down short-attention span society, where the term "real quick" is uttered daily. Younger (and some older) folks live on "social media", which focuses on self ("Look at ME!!!!!") not others. It was Democrat John Kennedy that said "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." He'd be unrecognizable to his party today.

    Now on to your points-
    1) The gore of auto wrecks in my case was not the bad part. The bad part was telling next of kin about the death, especially if it was a kid. IME, those in the profession long term either gravitate to a less-stressful position with better hours or become emotionally detached, sometimes both. Some turn to alcohol due to the stress. Constant exposure to stress changes people over time. This is not unique to police. Look at complaints against judges and you'll see the effect there as well. PTSD is of course well-documented for those that have served in the military, thanks in no small part to fighting in other people's endless wars.

    2) The killing in Atlanta did NOT involve police. The father was a retired deputy. While I have not read extensively about that case, I did read the fellow that filmed it has now also been charged with murder. Seems like non-existant cause for murder.

    3) Yes, it takes a lot of time for a proper criminal investigation, even with a lot of help (I mainly worked alone). You have to collect evidence, that evidence has to be processed (can take weeks if not months, it's NOT like CSI or any TV cops), witnesses have to be tracked down (a lot more time spent doing that) and interviewed. Interviews in some cases have to be transcribed. The report must be reviewed by a superior. It then goes to a prosecutor who may or may not want to file, despite there being sufficient probable cause.

    4) Body cameras and things like collecting traffic stop data came about IMO since some in power believed we could no longer trust police. See my initial observation about societal/moral decline. There is a mindset in modern America that "If you have not done anything wrong, then you won't object / you have nothing to hide". That flips many principles found in our Constitution on their head. You cannot prove a negative. As with laws that punish innocent Americans (USA PATRIOT being a main villain), laws/policies/procedures often punish hard working honest police officers. One or two mess up and ALL are painted with the broad brush.

    5) There is a way to report police misconduct. As with anything else (cars, appliances, guns ) it's easier to join a forum / go on "social media" (another cause of moral & intellectual decline IMO) and complain than to take the time to follow through. People like water & electricity follow the path of least resistance.
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    Good post, I suspected that it is harder to get good applicants. I know a guy that went to a police academy after being a security guard, got a police job, worked the job maybe 6 months and decided to be a security guard again and take the significant pay cut.

    Good points on the reasons, politicians and the media have done serious damage and it was to support agendas. I thought the OJ Trial did some damage also

    Sorry I blew number 2 but that is a result of poor media performance and me trying not to watch too much news.

    I wonder why the major or Minneapolis wasn't more preemptive by explaining the process steps and that it will take time. Instead he seems to take no responsibility. And for all the time the media spent on it yesterday did anyone explain the process? My questions, obvious questions are rarely answered by reporters.

    Then as far as our second amendment goes, black on black crime is an issue and lets be honest, the police don't serve the good people in the black community all that well so there is no reason the black community shouldn't be able to protect themselves. So while my governor is restricting my right to protect myself we admittedly have a problem hiring qualified law enforcement and it is not getting better, hmm.

    BTW there is a correlation between employment and crime, bring jobs back to America.

    Too many problems, too few solvers.
    A45ACP likes this.
    http://www.mkgandhi.org/nonviolence/...he%20sword.htm

    ...When my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence. Gandhi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by A45ACP View Post
    I worked in LE for 25 years, have been retired about 15 years. Mainly traffic but also some time in supervision and then criminal and internal investigations. I'll try to hit some of your points, but first a few observations:

    It's a changed world from when I worked. Keep in mind as society changes, so does the pool of police applicants. I had a chief say many years ago he could not keep standards and fill an academy class. IMO, there has been a significant societal/moral decline during this time. Not to politicize it, but a key turning point IMO was when the president in the mid-90s was caught in decidedly immoral behavior, lied about it, and then was given a pass. If we cannot hold that person accountable, what lesson does it send to our kids? BTW, those kids then are all adults now. For equal time, elections during my lifetime have devolved into usually voting for the lesser of two evils, to include the current president- who nearly daily sets a poor example for our children in how he treats others. I heard a commentator say once that his goals are similar to those of President Reagan, but his way of attaining them are completely different. Contrast his pride with the self-depreciating humor of Ronald Reagan, and it is night and day. The last federal candidate I voted FOR is quoted in my signature (I still vote), and that was 8 years ago.

    There is far less respect for police than when I worked. Some- fortunately very little- of it is deserved.

    Police kill a black man, news event similar to a natural disaster- unless of course the officer was black. Meanwhile, thousands of black men kill other black men and read about the story on page 25 if at all. If you look at violent crime numbers, a hugely disproportionate amount is committed by blacks, usually against other blacks.

    Where I live, that holds true. About a dozen mainly black men are killed by gunfire each year, and in each case the killer was another black man. The research I've done shows that in over 3/4 of the cases, an illegally-possessed gun (in violation of existing laws) was used, but no one seems to care about that. A couple of years ago, two white women were killed by a white man and it was national news. What's really sad IMO is how so many give lip service to what Dr. King said about judging by the content of character, not the color of skin. So long as we continue to use inaccurate terms such as African-American (which is not a race), we continue to divide not unite. We live in these United States, and E Pluribus Unum still means out of many, one. More lip service to many. Our republican Florida governor recently touted one of his court appointments as being the first Caribbean-American to hold such a position. I LOL'd. My question- what were her qualifications? I really don't care about where she was born or the color of her skin.

    As with other things, the media coverage or lack of coverage fans the flames or places it into obscurity, and is used as a tool to further divide people. We live in a dumbed-down short-attention span society, where the term "real quick" is uttered daily. Younger (and some older) folks live on "social media", which focuses on self ("Look at ME!!!!!") not others. It was Democrat John Kennedy that said "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." He'd be unrecognizable to his party today.

    Now on to your points-
    1) The gore of auto wrecks in my case was not the bad part. The bad part was telling next of kin about the death, especially if it was a kid. IME, those in the profession long term either gravitate to a less-stressful position with better hours or become emotionally detached, sometimes both. Some turn to alcohol due to the stress. Constant exposure to stress changes people over time. This is not unique to police. Look at complaints against judges and you'll see the effect there as well. PTSD is of course well-documented for those that have served in the military, thanks in no small part to fighting in other people's endless wars.

    2) The killing in Atlanta did NOT involve police. The father was a retired deputy. While I have not read extensively about that case, I did read the fellow that filmed it has now also been charged with murder. Seems like non-existant cause for murder.

    3) Yes, it takes a lot of time for a proper criminal investigation, even with a lot of help (I mainly worked alone). You have to collect evidence, that evidence has to be processed (can take weeks if not months, it's NOT like CSI or any TV cops), witnesses have to be tracked down (a lot more time spent doing that) and interviewed. Interviews in some cases have to be transcribed. The report must be reviewed by a superior. It then goes to a prosecutor who may or may not want to file, despite there being sufficient probable cause.

    4) Body cameras and things like collecting traffic stop data came about IMO since some in power believed we could no longer trust police. See my initial observation about societal/moral decline. There is a mindset in modern America that "If you have not done anything wrong, then you won't object / you have nothing to hide". That flips many principles found in our Constitution on their head. You cannot prove a negative. As with laws that punish innocent Americans (USA PATRIOT being a main villain), laws/policies/procedures often punish hard working honest police officers. One or two mess up and ALL are painted with the broad brush.

    5) There is a way to report police misconduct. As with anything else (cars, appliances, guns ) it's easier to join a forum / go on "social media" (another cause of moral & intellectual decline IMO) and complain than to take the time to follow through. People like water & electricity follow the path of least resistance.
    I too am retired law enforcement. I started in 1979. You hit all the significant points in this post.
    I know many that support the Thin Blue Line movement also come dangerously close, perhaps unwittingly, to a police state mentality. This Chinese Virus situation has certainly caused incidents of police state over reach in many states. Those incidents should not be overlooked or taken lightly. I see larger departments with more and more military equipment... in many instances few of their sworn personnel are even trained to use it.
    Last edited by ? Marquis; 05-28-2020 at 02:24 PM.
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    Two things;
    1) don't get arrested
    2) don't be a horses rearend if arrested.

    As far as I'm concerned he kill himself. Gene pool and public are safer.
    Its not about race the way you are treated, although it can be said (and it's not) it is about race the way you act. Are we genetically predisposed to act in some ways by race? You would be wrong to say other wise by what we know and you would be publicly shuned if you said so openly.
    Everyone wants to be treated equally but even handed treatment is not working for those who can't act equal to others.
    You don't want the boots put to you don't be acting a fool.

    Now if you are going to be dealing with fools, you should be trained and capable of handling fools.
    I see police who are physically not up to the job of going hands on.
    I see police who are not able to correctly use the technics of going hands on.
    I see police who abuse their power.
    Put all this in the meat grinder and here is what comes out for me.
    Don't mess with the bull you won't get the horns.
    If you are in quick sand, you don't fight it.
    If you are caught in a snair, you don't pull away.
    If you are in hand cuffs, shut up and post bail.
    We are not getting rid of fools or the police.
    If you can't figure out how to deal with ether its because you are stupid or unlucky. It called life. It lasts much longer if you're smart about it.


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    A lot of these instances should never happen. But I’ll say one thing. You’re attitude in any police interaction, is everything.
    ​All you need for happiness is a good gun, a good horse, and a good wife.

    Texas friendly, spoken here.





  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickthus View Post
    Two things;
    1) don't get arrested
    2) don't be a horses rearend if arrested.

    As far as I'm concerned he kill himself. Gene pool and public are safer.
    Its not about race the way you are treated, although it can be said (and it's not) it is about race the way you act. Are we genetically predisposed to act in some ways by race? You would be wrong to say other wise by what we know and you would be publicly shuned if you said so openly.
    Everyone wants to be treated equally but even handed treatment is not working for those who can't act equal to others.
    You don't want the boots put to you don't be acting a fool.

    Now if you are going to be dealing with fools, you should be trained and capable of handling fools.
    I see police who are physically not up to the job of going hands on.
    I see police who are not able to correctly use the technics of going hands on.
    I see police who abuse their power.
    Put all this in the meat grinder and here is what comes out for me.
    Don't mess with the bull you won't get the horns.
    If you are in quick sand, you don't fight it.
    If you are caught in a snair, you don't pull away.
    If you are in hand cuffs, shut up and post bail.
    We are not getting rid of fools or the police.
    If you can't figure out how to deal with ether its because you are stupid or unlucky. It called life. It lasts much longer if you're smart about it.

    Who killed themselves? In Minneapolis i hear he was under the influence and falsely accused of passing a bad check. I see no resisting arrest and even if there was resisting arrest it was minutes from over when he was choked to death. I'm missing what the dead man could have done better, not drank to much? Any other idea would include race. What am I missing?
    http://www.mkgandhi.org/nonviolence/...he%20sword.htm

    ...When my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence. Gandhi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhugg View Post
    Who killed themselves? In Minneapolis i hear he was under the influence and falsely accused of passing a bad check. I see no resisting arrest and even if there was resisting arrest it was minutes from over when he was choked to death. I'm missing what the dead man could have done better, not drank to much? Any other idea would include race. What am I missing?
    I have been falsely put in cuffs for awhile until it got figured out. I didn't get choked to death. It wasn't because of my skin color but the way I acted. I knew it was going to be figured out as soon as Barney told Andy what happened.
    This guy would be just as dead making bad decisions with another situation. Poking a stick at a wild animal, walking drunk on a train track or getting in a fight with a cop. Is a cop going to make mistakes? You bet they are. Am I going to call the cop a killer? Never going to happen. The cop was doing his job. He used his training wrong and for to long. The most that should happen to the cop is losing his job.
    I was raised right. I was told what could happen in life if you put yourself at risk.
    What your missing is don't put yourself at risk and if you do don't make it worse. Ship can happen and there is no coming back when it sails.
    Ironmagz likes this.

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    I worked in law enforcement, I graduated from my state's police academy. At no point were we ever taught a move that included kneeling on someone's neck, especially if they were cooperative, which every video so far of George Floyd shows he was. The officers involved need to be prosecuted and it sounds like they will be.

    Things have changed in law enforcement, but killing the non-violent suspect of a non-violent crime is thankfully one thing that hasn't.

    Nobody anywhere, should be killed that way over a phony $20 bill. I don't care who you are, life is more valuable than that.
    PT22, 85 Poly, 865, 605, M44.... what's next?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ickthus View Post
    Two things;
    1) don't get arrested
    2) don't be a horses rearend if arrested.

    As far as I'm concerned he kill himself. Gene pool and public are safer.
    Its not about race the way you are treated, although it can be said (and it's not) it is about race the way you act. Are we genetically predisposed to act in some ways by race? You would be wrong to say other wise by what we know and you would be publicly shuned if you said so openly.
    Everyone wants to be treated equally but even handed treatment is not working for those who can't act equal to others.
    You don't want the boots put to you don't be acting a fool.

    Now if you are going to be dealing with fools, you should be trained and capable of handling fools.
    I see police who are physically not up to the job of going hands on.
    I see police who are not able to correctly use the technics of going hands on.
    I see police who abuse their power.
    Put all this in the meat grinder and here is what comes out for me.
    Don't mess with the bull you won't get the horns.
    If you are in quick sand, you don't fight it.
    If you are caught in a snair, you don't pull away.
    If you are in hand cuffs, shut up and post bail.
    We are not getting rid of fools or the police.
    If you can't figure out how to deal with ether its because you are stupid or unlucky. It called life. It lasts much longer if you're smart about it.

    You rather said that police have to be treated as though they are unpredictable wild animals if one wants to survive an encounter with one.

    Does that sound satisfactory?
    "Failure requires maximum effort. If you didn't give it 100%, you didn't fail...you quit."
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