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  1. #21
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    Heard someone comment the other day, "When libs are complaining about Americans
    being ignorant they need to remember most of these people were educated in the
    public schools that libs so strongly support".

    All the Best,
    D. White
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kinglens View Post
    I think free education is a cool thing. In a number of countries free higher education is already available: Argentina, Brazil, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Norway, Scotland and Turkey. For the most part, they are paid at the expense of tax revenues and as for me it is right. At present, American universities are millionaires; they earn about $ 65 billion a year, which is enough to pay for the personnel, facilities and resources that they use today for training. This is just cosmic money. But, I think that if you study for free, you should do your best to live up to the expectation. There is an option that offering everyone a free education at a college / university, more and more people will get college / university qualifications and have access to a higher paying job. This will greatly enhance their skills in the future.
    I've lived in "the government provides a lot for free" land. Those tax revenues you refer to came from taxation levels that strangle their economies. No thanks.

    Yes, some universities are millionaires. Those are the ones recognized worldwide as the best places on earth to get an education. They already fund whoever they want to add to their alumni rolls. Government meddling isn't going to improve their situations. But sure, they may be some that an unconstitutional federal takeover would improve. I mean, Bernie Sanders claims to know a lot about education. Let's ask the students of Burlington College how happy they are that his wife took over....

    The idea that free education means lots more people will get higher paying jobs is unproven at best, and a red herring at worst. The President was right to call for more vocational training in every US High School. And unless the government dictates what people study, the slackers who are hiding from real life by going to college (I met several who were doing it on Mommy and Daddy's dime - there'd be millions more if they never had to tell a relative what they were "studying.") are going to be majoring in the cultural history of television. All they'll be raking in after graduation are crumbs off of table 42.

    Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The federal bureaucrats who'd run this program would be fleecing and abusing their positions within minutes. And the Soviet Union had free college. Who had better aircraft, computers, etc.? The "give it out for free" crowd, or us capitalists?

    Nationalizing is inefficient in small countries, and disastrous in larger ones.
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  3. #23
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    Put the government in charge of the checkbook for college, and you'll get the same result you get from that being the case in K-12 education.

    - Indifferent effort

    - By students: Not all, of course. But some. The ones who use the continued education opportunity to further delay growing up and taking responsibility for their lives, or to go to school where their forever love is. Being free of any self-imposed expectations, the curriculum will simply become an impediment to the social interaction such students prefer and will inevitably fall victim to their disruption.

    - By parents: Of course, not all. But enough to eventually undermine the system. Since their attitude will be the same as it is for high school ('Hey -- I'm paying for this already, so my little genius should be treated SPECIAL!'). Since junior will still be at home, such students will inevitably turn to the parents to right the wrongs suffered at the hands of professors (refer to next point) who just don't understand the special treatment junior should get. Consider that starting years ago, colleges began having to teach a class to prepare freshmen to be students -- something that was taken for granted not long before. And more recently, colleges have begun adding a class on 'Adulting' -- how to function as an adult in society, paying bills, doing laundry -- you know, all that, 'Life is really hard,' stuff.

    - By 'professors': I put the quotes there, because in short order, professors will become little more than highly-qualified baby sitters. The quality of the material they teach will be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, and the good professors will be supplanted by professors who are willing to bend to quota pressures, shuffling students through in answer to the demands placed on them . . . .

    - By administrators: The government will pay, but by what metric? If it's by the number of students in graduating, then colleges become diploma mills, lowering standards to get students out the door to get money in the till. Of course, to prevent that the government will produce 'standardized tests'. Then colleges will teach to the tests. You can follow this same cycle in K-12 education over the past fifty years.


    - Quality education available to the ones who can pay quality money. As the quality of the college education enters its death spiral, private colleges step in to fill the void -- at a price. And the separation between the 'Haves' and the 'Have-nots' grows even wider as opportunities get slanted toward the graduates of private colleges.


    Want 'free' education? Fine -- use it to fund education in fields that have strategic or national value. If a kid wants to study French Medieval Literature, let the kid or the parents pay for it. If the kid wants to study in a field in which there is a national interest -- e.g., medicine, engineering -- then establish a scholarship program for students who qualify for such programs. Extend the same idea to vocational programs -- subsidize master craftsmen and tradesmen to take on apprentices in fields and locations in which there is, or is projected to be, a need.
    Last edited by 230JHP; 02-14-2020 at 03:15 AM.
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  5. #24
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    What these rising college kids need to understand, the government is NOT going to pay for something unless it's
    going to return something to the public at large.

    Bernie MIGHT start paying for literature and pottery degrees but that will fade fast. It will then become ONLY
    science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) degrees unless you're somehow connected to the elites running
    the country or you're truly a child prodigy.

    They'll also want some kind of commitment. You get an english degree or the like you're going to have to commit to being a teacher
    or librarian or perform some other related service related to that field for an extended time. Lots of kids get out of school, start working
    in their field and find they don't like it. It'll be, "TOO BAD! It what you WANTED now DO IT! ".

    All the Best,
    D. White
    Last edited by dwhite; 02-14-2020 at 12:22 PM.
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  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwhite View Post
    What these rising college kids need to understand, the government is NOT going to pay for something unless it's
    going to return something to the public at large.

    Bernie MIGHT start paying for literature and pottery degrees but that will fade fast. It will then become ONLY
    science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) degrees unless you're somehow connected to the elites running
    the country or you're truly a child prodigy.

    They'll also want some kind of commitment. You get an english degree or the like you're going to have to commit to being a teacher
    or librarian or perform some other related service related to that field for an extended time. Lots of kids get out of school, start working
    in their field and find they don't like it. It'll be, "TOO BAD! It what you WANTED now DO IT! ".

    All the Best,
    D. White


    With all due respect, Sir, I would differ with your assessment. In the first case, Government, in the last hundred years or so has paid through the nose for all sorts of foolish, wasteful, and nonproductive efforts by people of all stripe - from the most altruistic, right on through to the most deviously self-interested. A late United States Senator was fond of conferring his "Golden Fleece Awards" for the most outrageous schemes that bilked the public treasury of BILLIONS! Government WILL. and DOES, pay - both here and abroad - for many things which have little or no reward to the public good at all.

    Government, even with Bernie as only an isolated Independent Senator from a small New England state, has established itself as the never-failing-teat from which flows money in vast, unaccountable sums for subsidy to a plethora of "liberal arts" (and I use that term cautiously) issues, curricula, grants, and endowments that to even attempt to choke off a portion of this largesse would throw the entirety of both coasts into a fit of apoplectic rage that would strangle the nation.
    Although well-trained STEM graduates would benefit the nation in the most direct and practical way, I cannot envision a populace so conditioned as ours is to take the easy road of satisfying the loudest shouters and marchers - abandoning that history and forcing hard choices upon themselves or the recipients.

    As for "commitment"? I fear a generation that has swallowed detergent capsules, legalized pot, and become the "hook-up culture" will have a sore struggle with that. Statistics showing the decline in marriages, the increase in divorce, increase in single-parent households, the astronomical abortion rate and expenditure, declining birth-rate all support pessimism on that issue.

    The political promise that makes "something for nothing" or "free stuff" is a fools bargain, yet so many of the electorate (especially the young, untrained, inexperienced) find its siren song almost too much to resist.

    Like yourself, I would rather see what money the government does give out for education applied to things that would have the most direct and positive public good. I would encourage young folks to begin with STEM career fields and contribute to the well-being of the nation as a whole while reaping for themselves secure careers and incomes.

    But experience in the real world has taught me to keep my expectations fairly low where the gullibility of the public intersects with the nature of politics and the fountain of taxpayer dollars flows in unlimited amounts.


    Seems like I've diverted the thread - it should probably be in POLITICS by this point.
    Last edited by Flash60601; 02-14-2020 at 03:26 PM.
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  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by guethuti View Post
    Free education, really? I have not heard of this for a long time, now all education is paid and very expensive, it is almost impossible to get a grant at any university. So, if you want to learn something new, you need to spend a lot of time at home reading books.
    Hey. Yes, free education exists. But free colleges are intended for all students and the quality of education there is not very good. Since children with different levels of knowledge study in such colleges, teachers must adapt the material to all students. In this way, the material is adapted to students with the lowest level. Also in similar colleges the level of discipline leaves much to be desired. Many bad-educated students and even students who break the law go to such colleges. Students do not cope with the tasks assigned to them and often buy papers from services such as the service from which all students can buy cheap paper. The director often calls on the parents of students because they behave inappropriately, do not cope with the rules of behavior set for them.

  8. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by CecilFitzgerald View Post
    Hey. Yes, free education exists. But free colleges are intended for all students and the quality of education there is not very good. Since children with different levels of knowledge study in such colleges, teachers must adapt the material to all students. In this way, the material is adapted to students with the lowest level. Also in similar colleges the level of discipline leaves much to be desired. Many bad-educated students and even students who break the law go to such colleges. Students do not cope with the tasks assigned to them and often buy papers from services such as the service from which all students can buy cheap paper. The director often calls on the parents of students because they behave inappropriately, do not cope with the rules of behavior set for them.
    There is no 'free' college.

    Taxpayer-funded, yes. 'Free'? No.

    And when government money funds colleges, then government control (currently the favored term is, 'oversight') follows.

    That's been such a benefit to K-12 education.
    Last edited by 230JHP; 05-05-2020 at 04:54 AM.
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    Most stereotypes come from how you treated the last person who didn't know you.

    "The greater part of mankind . . . walk blindfolded in this glorious theater." John Calvin

    We will continue to make our republic the inspiration, the glory, and the envy of the rest of the world. As long as we are confident in our values, loyal to our citizens, and faithful to our God, there is no limit to what we can achieve. ​President Donald J. Trump, Feb 29, 2020.

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 230JHP View Post
    There is no 'free' college.

    Taxpayer-funded, yes. 'Free'? No.

    And when government money funds colleges, then government control (currently the favored term is, 'oversight') follows.

    That's been such a benefit to K-12 education.
    Oh, ok. Thank you for the information. Sorry for this mistake.
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