Father Facing Felony Charges After Shooting Two Men Attempting to Kidnap His Son - Page 7
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Thread: Father Facing Felony Charges After Shooting Two Men Attempting to Kidnap His Son

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by RScottie View Post
    Well, our Founding Fathers thought differently...

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."
    ~ Thomas Jefferson
    A sentiment embraced by many for whom it has become convenient to let themselves be convinced they are victims, and society has been rigged to deny them opportunity.
    DeltaBravoKS and BigBlue like this.
    Most stereotypes come from how you treated the last person who didn't know you.

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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaBravoKS View Post
    Regarding stigma and employment opportunity, I find it interesting there are so many people who want to force businesses to not be allowed to ask if one is a felon, yet if a business hires a violent felon and puts them with others and the felon goes "postal" on a co-worker, the business can be held liable for placing the violent felon among commoners.

    There's one way to avoid the stigma and social repercussions of being labeled a felon.

    I don't believe it is my government's responsibility to rehabilitate anyone (as if that even works). It is my government's responsibility to keep people off the streets that can't behave themselves.
    I thought the protections about asking someone was a felon was the same employed when purchasing a gun. The 4473 asks “are you a felon”? Was illegal because it violates your 5th - right to not implicate oneself.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by daytonaredeye View Post
    I thought the protections about asking someone was a felon was the same employed when purchasing a gun. The 4473 asks “are you a felon”? Was illegal because it violates your 5th - right to not implicate oneself.
    I didn't know the 4473's question had been ruled illegal. I filled one out a couple weeks ago and it sure asked!

    As far as an employer is concerned, the Fifth Amendment wouldn't be implicated because there is no state action (assuming it is a private employer asking and not a government entity or government contractor).

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  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHorse View Post
    I see. So "it's in the constitution" means "the words aren't there, but here's how I interpret things..."
    The Bill of Rights is part of the Constitution.

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  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by 230JHP View Post
    A sentiment embraced by many for whom it has become convenient to let themselves be convinced they are victims, and society has been rigged to deny them opportunity.
    What are you talking about? Who is claiming to be a "victim"? We are talking about rights and our Founding Fathers views on laws that were unjust.

    We are not talking about robbing liquor stores.

    If you truly support unjust laws, you may as well turn in your guns now.

    MOLON LABE
    "Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace." ~James Madison

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Ape View Post
    I do find it interesting, in an oh so ironic and dumbfounded head scratching way, that a country built upon the belief of freedoms and the desire to extend those freedoms to all its citizens, has more laws on the books, and more people in prison than any other country in the entire world, free or not. While I'm head scratching I do have to wonder if the system is working exactly as intended? Certainly not as pitched or promised mind you, but intended. The "Civil Death" of ex cons in our society only lends further cause for conspiracy theory. Hmmmmm.....
    I agree.

    And I am further dumbfounded to find so many on this forum, a Gun Forum nonetheless, that have no clue how we got our rights and how we have lost them gradually over the years.

    They seem to think they are being tough on criminals by supporting these laws all the while not understanding how it has made all of us less free.
    Zen Ape likes this.

    MOLON LABE
    "Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace." ~James Madison

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemakr40 View Post
    I think you missed the essence of what I said. we can't JUST ignore them, we must also change them.
    Possibly...

    Except it seems many on here are fine with the restrictions as long as they only effect THOSE people.

    Reminds me of that famous poem by Martin Niemöller....
    Zen Ape likes this.

    MOLON LABE
    "Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace." ~James Madison

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by RScottie View Post
    Possibly...

    Except it seems many on here are fine with the restrictions as long as they only effect THOSE people.

    Reminds me of that famous poem by Martin Niemöller....
    Careful. Around these parts they might think you a liberal with that kind of talk.


    "First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
    RScottie likes this.
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  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by RScottie View Post
    Well, our Founding Fathers thought differently...

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."
    ~ Thomas Jefferson
    Quote Originally Posted by 230JHP View Post
    A sentiment embraced by many for whom it has become convenient to let themselves be convinced they are victims, and society has been rigged to deny them opportunity.
    Quote Originally Posted by RScottie View Post
    What are you talking about? Who is claiming to be a "victim"? We are talking about rights and our Founding Fathers views on laws that were unjust.
    Maybe I was too subtle -- let me clarify the point.

    There are many people who have rationalized their criminal behavior (and many people who rationalize a family member's behavior postmortem) with the idea that they had to break the law to supplement their income because they were victims of an unfair society that didn't provide them what they needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by RScottie View Post
    If you truly support unjust laws, you may as well turn in your guns now.
    I doubt that I'll turn in any guns, nor do I accept your evaluation that the laws under discussion here are unjust.
    BigBlue likes this.
    Most stereotypes come from how you treated the last person who didn't know you.

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  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by RScottie View Post
    I agree.

    And I am further dumbfounded to find so many on this forum, a Gun Forum nonetheless, that have no clue how we got our rights and how we have lost them gradually over the years.

    They seem to think they are being tough on criminals by supporting these laws all the while not understanding how it has made all of us less free.
    I have no problem with restoring rights to felons who have demonstrated they have truly accepted rehabilitation and are unlikely to return to crime. Not blanket restoration without consideration for the individual's propensity for criminal behavior, but considered restoration based on the individual having;

    1. completely fulfilled the terms of their sentencing;

    2. made restoration to any victims of their crime(s), and;

    3. established a record of lawful behavior for a reasonable period (the length can be debated, but for the sake of example, let's say a period equal to 50% of their incarceration).

    Absent meeting ALL three conditions, I don't consider that the felon has fully served a sentence and demonstrated they can be trusted to conduct themselves without being a threat to other people in society.

    But when recidivism rates exceed 80%, it tends to leave the impression that something in the system needs to be fixed. Automatic restoration of voting rights and gun ownership isn't the fix for the problems, whether those problems be social, psychological, whatever.

    It isn't a matter of being tough on criminals. It's a matter of protecting society from people who have demonstrated they are willing to violate the law, for whatever reason. Not theoretical future crimes, but historical real crimes with real victims.

    As far as people becoming felons because they picked up a feather -- is the answer to give a violent career felon a gun, because one or two people picked up a hypothetical feather?

    It's not a matter of not caring about 'THOSE PEOPLE' (by the way, I have some of 'those people' in my family. I've heard the rationalizations, seen the 'it's not my fault' spiral); it's more a matter of caring about the law-abiding in society, and not being cavalier about being willing to accept risk that someone else would have to deal with -- kind of like the judge who exercises discretion that puts a violent offender out on the streets, confident that the felon wouldn't be in his or her neighborhood.
    BigBlue likes this.
    Most stereotypes come from how you treated the last person who didn't know you.

    "The greater part of mankind . . . walk blindfolded in this glorious theater." John Calvin

 

 
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