Justified use of deadly force, or excessive?
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Thread: Justified use of deadly force, or excessive?

  1. #1
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    Justified use of deadly force, or excessive?

    I'm curious to know what some of my fellow Taurusarmed members think about this shooting? Personally, I'm on the fence but leaning toward excessive. While I do believe the use of deadly force was certainly justified here, after the first few shots things get hazy for me. At that point the store employee comes around the counter to where he can get a better sight on the guy he just dropped, and at that point unloads the rest of his mag into a prone target, which appears to be around 13 shots, over the course of 4 full seconds. On another forum I saw this video and I pointed this out to some of the more, shall we say over zealous kill all thugs because they deserve death types, and was met with (by a few of the more level headed ones mind you) that the perp could have still have been perceived as being a threat as even though he was down, he still had a gun within reach. I can respect that. However I can't help but think (or I'd like to at any rate. None of us really know until the lead starts flying) that I would have kept him at gun point at that time once he was prone and I no longer had a gun pointed at me, and called in the troops rather than firing until my slide went back on an empty chamber. Regardless of where we fall on this one, I doubt very much Massad Ayoob will be using this video in his classes as what to do in lethal self defense scenario. Video is fairly graphic, so if you don't want to watch someone catch one hell of a case of lead poisoning, don't watch.

    https://hoodsite.com/cell-phone-stor...Mi5mgfKKpvKFr8
    Last edited by Zen Ape; 08-31-2019 at 04:19 PM.
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    How about a justified shooting that progressed across the line and into a cause for the Grand Jury to look into a charge of murder.

    We were taught to stop the aggressor, neutralize the situation of any firearm, surroundings and on lookers, call 911, and provide any first aid that you are able to offer.

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    Looking at the video, I would say justified as the perps gun is not clear of the body. It could be considered overkill butAdrenalin does weird stuff in the fight/flight situations. Survival instinct takes over. I would say the clerk emptied his mag then ran, He probably doesn't realize how many times he pulled the trigger. He appears to have pulled after the mag was empty. I wish there was audio..

    The McDonald shooting in Chicago, Officer Van Dyke emptied his mag... then pulled the trigger a couple more times..

    My first deer taken hunting I shot 4 times with a Browning A5 at 20 yards, I ran out of shells....1 in the chamber, 3 in the tube. The first shot killed him the next 3 were as he fell.... Adrenalin! I have since eliminated my overkill tendency when hunting. I don't know how I would react in the clerks situation..
    When people lose their way and begin to vote for their own yokes and chains and suddenly we’re all wearing them, when Government turns tyrannical and the light of liberty is being extinguished.... our 2nd amendment is our ONLY hope.


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    First and foremost, I've never shot anyone, hope I never have to, and the guy innocently doing his job walked away. And who knows what he was hearing around the neighborhood in the last few days. "Dude, some guy shot a robber five times and the guy still shot him back! It's crazy!"

    Having said all that... That attacker looked so lackadaisical, so casual, it's almost unsettling. He obviously wasn't expecting what he got. But his gun was in plain sight.

    I'd say, reiterating the "none of us really know what we'd do" caveat, that the textbook answer would be two or three shots, stopping once the guy was on the floor. I'd say "motionless on the floor," but he never really was motionless. Of course, he was still absorbing a lot of shots. The employee did look like someone who's only thought was "defend myself and get out alive." All the shots were one continuous stream, which supports "I was just reacting, defending myself and nothing more."

    Tell you what, though, this makes you think about the old joke about "why did you shoot him 18 times!?" "I didn't have time to reload." Not as funny after watching that video. What a wasted life (the would-be robber, I mean).
    "It is wonderful, in the event of a street fight, how few bullets seem to hit the men they are aimed at." Ranch Life and the Hunting Trail, Theodore Roosevelt, 1888

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    It seems like we had a thread recently about a shooting simular to this one and the (shooter)victim was charged with attempted murder because he emptied his mag. on the bad guy.
    Who knows? Adrenaline dump? Anger issues? Tired of being robbed?

    There really should be PSA's out there, stating people are armed.

    Don't hurt people and don't take their stuff.
    We the People...

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    I believe the guy was justified in shooting the perp......but probably could have stopped at 3 or 4 rounds.

    However....in the heat of the fight we don't always make the best decisions. I do not see the the guy(store clerk) guilty of any crime.
    a.k.a. Higgy Baby

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    Looked like most police shootings of armed individuals.

    Keep shooting until the perp stops moving when they have a gun in their hand.

    Are you questioning it because it wasn't the police doing the shooting?

    MOLON LABE
    "Oppressors can tyrannize only when they achieve a standing army, an enslaved press, and a disarmed populace." ~James Madison

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Ape View Post
    I'm curious to know what some of my fellow Taurusarmed members think about this shooting? Personally, I'm on the fence but leaning toward excessive. While I do believe the use of deadly force was certainly justified here, after the first few shots things get hazy for me. At that point the store employee comes around the counter to where he can get a better sight on the guy he just dropped, and at that point unloads the rest of his mag into a prone target, which appears to be around 13 shots, over the course of 4 full seconds. On another forum I saw this video and I pointed this out to some of the more, shall we say over zealous kill all thugs because they deserve death types, and was met with (by a few of the more level headed ones mind you) that the perp could have still have been perceived as being a threat as even though he was down, he still had a gun within reach. I can respect that. However I can't help but think that I would have kept him at gun point at that time once he was prone and I no longer had a gun pointed at me, and called in the troops rather than firing until my slide went back on an empty chamber. Regardless of where we fall on this one, I doubt very much Massad Ayoob will be using this video in his classes as what to do in lethal self defense scenario. Video is fairly graphic, so if you don't want to watch someone catch one hell of a case of lead poisoning, don't watch.

    https://hoodsite.com/cell-phone-stor...Mi5mgfKKpvKFr8
    Yup, watched the video, and I have to agree that the "extra shots" were over the top. It's easy to watch something and say "well, I would have stopped after the dude went down", but under the stress of the situation, and adrenalin, we might keep pulling on the trigger, without even seriously thinking about it.

    Looks to me the BG was down and out, after the first shot or two. I don't think I would have kept firing, after I came around the corner, and saw him in the fetal position.
    Zen Ape likes this.
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    I really dislike, hindsight, diagnosis for incidents of a justified shooting. I've seen law enforcement shootings worse. Fear induced adrenaline plays a factor in life threatening situation.

    Here is one that bothers me for other reasons.

    https://www.cleveland19.com/2019/06/...-attack-video/

    1. Dalton's radio failed to immediately connect to dispatch which is controlled at county level.
    2. No bystanders rushed to his help. There were a dozen workers at the business watching.

    He sat on the ground bleeding before EMS showed up from less than a block away. It nearly took two minutes for the call for backup went through.

    In short, there isn't any reason for us to make a judgement in either case. Now the case in Florida isn't the same. I've been knocked over by rude and angry people. I wanted to punch them in the face, but never drew my firearm.

    Maloy
    WoodyUSSLUCE likes this.

  11. #10
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    I watched the video....I also saw one from another angle earlier. It's amazing what a different perspective brings.... but iI is it had sound.
    That could change opinions also. I think it was a good shoot.... the guy moved like he was afraid so that's probably why the mag dump.
    WoodyUSSLUCE likes this.

 

 
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