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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by oso View Post
    Watch the episode of Gun Stories as mentioned and all your concerns will be answered. Unless you happen to be an expert in metallurgy and or a scientist.
    I'm not entirely ignorant of science, thanks for asking. But I wasn't able to find a way to watch that full episode; if anyone knows of a way, I'd be interested to watch it.

    But here's a clearer explanation of my point. 4140 stainless is a commonly used steel in the firearms industry. A few seconds searching gave the following information. Here's the composition data:

    Chemical composition(mass fraction)(wt.%) of the ASTM 4140

    C
    Si
    Mn
    P
    S
    Cr Ni
    0.38-0.43 0.15-0.35 0.75-1.0 0.035 0.04 0.8-1.1
    Mo Al Cu Nb Ti V Ce
    0.15-0.25
    N Co Pb B Other

    And equally or perhaps more importantly, here are the mechanical properties:

    Yield
    Rp0.2 (MPa)
    Tensile
    Rm (MPa)
    Impact
    KV/Ku (J)
    Elongation
    A (%)
    Reduction in cross section on fracture
    Z (%)
    As-Heat-Treated Condition Brinell hardness (HBW)
    547 (≥) 714 (≥) 22 13 32 Solution and Aging, Annealing, Ausaging, Q+T,etc 344

    So 4140 stainless is .3% (by mass) of carbon, .15% Silicon, .75% manganese, 0.035% phosphorous, 0.04% Sulfur, 0.8% Chromium, 0.15% Molybdenum, and has a tensile strength of 714 MegaPascals.

    A36 is a common carbon steel alloy. Its composition is

    Component Elements Properties Metric English Comments
    Carbon, C <= 0.290 % <= 0.290 %
    Copper, Cu >= 0.020 % >= 0.020 %
    Iron, Fe >= 98.0 % >= 98.0 %
    Manganese, Mn 0.85 - 1.20 % 0.85 - 1.20 %
    Phosphorous, P <= 0.040 % <= 0.040 %
    Silicon, Si 0.15 - 0.40 % 0.15 - 0.40 %
    Sulfur, S <= 0.050 % <= 0.050 %

    Some of its mechanical properties are:
    Mechanical Properties Metric English Comments
    Hardness, Brinell 119 - 159 119 - 159 based on conversion from tensile strength
    Hardness, Rockwell B 67.0 - 83.0 67.0 - 83.0 based on conversion from tensile strength
    Tensile Strength at Break 400 - 552 MPa 58000 - 80000 psi
    Tensile Strength, Yield >= 221 MPa >= 32000 psi

    So "carbon steel" has a lower tensile strength than stainless, at 400-552 MPa.

    Now, the composition of the Gibeon meteorite is given as 91,8% Fe; 7,7% Ni; 0,5% Co; 0,04% P; 2,4 ppm Ir; 1,97 ppm Ga; 0,111 ppm Ge

    That's a LOT of Nickel, first of all. The Iridium and Gallium are probably insignificant. But what is the tensile strength? If they tested it, did they take enough samples to make sure the tensile strength was consistent throughout the source material? Maybe a qualified, experienced machinist could tell by how the material responds to the machining processes, but that's still a huge difference between this highly unusual alloy and more commonly specified alloys.

    Now, having said all that, the research this post represents got me to read this article about the guns - https://robbreport.com/lifestyle/spo...photos-231849/ - which says The only parts of the Big Bang pistol set that aren’t made of meteorite are the springs, sears, barrels, hammer strut, pins, screws, and slide rails. Everything else—slides, frames, triggers, magazine release, and grips—is pure Gibeon. Speaking of frightening, the guns’ first test firing was a bit daunting.

    Which changes the whole metallurgical question radically. The tensile strength is obviously the most important for the barrels. The modulus of elasticity matters for the springs. Hardness matters a lot for the slide rails, etc. etc. The slide, frame, etc. metallurgy is probably a lot more forgiving.
    "It is wonderful, in the event of a street fight, how few bullets seem to hit the men they are aimed at." Ranch Life and the Hunting Trail, Theodore Roosevelt, 1888

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHorse View Post
    I'm not entirely ignorant of science, thanks for asking. But I wasn't able to find a way to watch that full episode; if anyone knows of a way, I'd be interested to watch it.

    But here's a clearer explanation of my point. 4140 stainless is a commonly used steel in the firearms industry. A few seconds searching gave the following information. Here's the composition data:

    Chemical composition(mass fraction)(wt.%) of the ASTM 4140

    C
    Si
    Mn
    P
    S
    Cr Ni
    0.38-0.43 0.15-0.35 0.75-1.0 0.035 0.04 0.8-1.1
    Mo Al Cu Nb Ti V Ce
    0.15-0.25
    N Co Pb B Other

    And equally or perhaps more importantly, here are the mechanical properties:

    Yield
    Rp0.2 (MPa)
    Tensile
    Rm (MPa)
    Impact
    KV/Ku (J)
    Elongation
    A (%)
    Reduction in cross section on fracture
    Z (%)
    As-Heat-Treated Condition Brinell hardness (HBW)
    547 (≥) 714 (≥) 22 13 32 Solution and Aging, Annealing, Ausaging, Q+T,etc 344

    So 4140 stainless is .3% (by mass) of carbon, .15% Silicon, .75% manganese, 0.035% phosphorous, 0.04% Sulfur, 0.8% Chromium, 0.15% Molybdenum, and has a tensile strength of 714 MegaPascals.

    A36 is a common carbon steel alloy. Its composition is

    Component Elements Properties Metric English Comments
    Carbon, C <= 0.290 % <= 0.290 %
    Copper, Cu >= 0.020 % >= 0.020 %
    Iron, Fe >= 98.0 % >= 98.0 %
    Manganese, Mn 0.85 - 1.20 % 0.85 - 1.20 %
    Phosphorous, P <= 0.040 % <= 0.040 %
    Silicon, Si 0.15 - 0.40 % 0.15 - 0.40 %
    Sulfur, S <= 0.050 % <= 0.050 %

    Some of its mechanical properties are:
    Mechanical Properties Metric English Comments
    Hardness, Brinell 119 - 159 119 - 159 based on conversion from tensile strength
    Hardness, Rockwell B 67.0 - 83.0 67.0 - 83.0 based on conversion from tensile strength
    Tensile Strength at Break 400 - 552 MPa 58000 - 80000 psi
    Tensile Strength, Yield >= 221 MPa >= 32000 psi

    So "carbon steel" has a lower tensile strength than stainless, at 400-552 MPa.

    Now, the composition of the Gibeon meteorite is given as 91,8% Fe; 7,7% Ni; 0,5% Co; 0,04% P; 2,4 ppm Ir; 1,97 ppm Ga; 0,111 ppm Ge

    That's a LOT of Nickel, first of all. The Iridium and Gallium are probably insignificant. But what is the tensile strength? If they tested it, did they take enough samples to make sure the tensile strength was consistent throughout the source material? Maybe a qualified, experienced machinist could tell by how the material responds to the machining processes, but that's still a huge difference between this highly unusual alloy and more commonly specified alloys.

    Now, having said all that, the research this post represents got me to read this article about the guns - https://robbreport.com/lifestyle/spo...photos-231849/ - which says The only parts of the Big Bang pistol set that aren’t made of meteorite are the springs, sears, barrels, hammer strut, pins, screws, and slide rails. Everything else—slides, frames, triggers, magazine release, and grips—is pure Gibeon. Speaking of frightening, the guns’ first test firing was a bit daunting.

    Which changes the whole metallurgical question radically. The tensile strength is obviously the most important for the barrels. The modulus of elasticity matters for the springs. Hardness matters a lot for the slide rails, etc. etc. The slide, frame, etc. metallurgy is probably a lot more forgiving.

    ^^^^^^^^^^

    Yeah, yeah.. That's it! What he said. Now if he was talking about the Maillard Reaction, well now, THAT's a different story!
    olfarhors likes this.
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    I saw a lot of these on old balck and white TV growing up and watching Superman on Saturday mornings!
    most all the guns that the bad guys used were made from metorites, the ones that had Kryptonite in them cause Superman would always dodge them so he wouldn't get hit by them.
    Retired Firefighter, Advanced Georgia Master Gardener, Hazardous Material Response Member, Certified Hazardous Material Incident Commander, 1911 Addict and General Gun Lover.
    Currently Professionally Retired Old Person.

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    ^^^^^^^
    I always thought it odd that Superman stood proudly and let bullets bounce off him but he dodged the empty gun when thrown at him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHorse View Post
    I'm not entirely ignorant of science, thanks for asking. But I wasn't able to find a way to watch that full episode; if anyone knows of a way, I'd be interested to watch it.

    But here's a clearer explanation of my point. 4140 stainless is a commonly used steel in the firearms industry. A few seconds searching gave the following information. Here's the composition data:

    Chemical composition(mass fraction)(wt.%) of the ASTM 4140

    C
    Si
    Mn
    P
    S
    Cr Ni
    0.38-0.43 0.15-0.35 0.75-1.0 0.035 0.04 0.8-1.1
    Mo Al Cu Nb Ti V Ce
    0.15-0.25
    N Co Pb B Other

    And equally or perhaps more importantly, here are the mechanical properties:

    Yield
    Rp0.2 (MPa)
    Tensile
    Rm (MPa)
    Impact
    KV/Ku (J)
    Elongation
    A (%)
    Reduction in cross section on fracture
    Z (%)
    As-Heat-Treated Condition Brinell hardness (HBW)
    547 (≥) 714 (≥) 22 13 32 Solution and Aging, Annealing, Ausaging, Q+T,etc 344

    So 4140 stainless is .3% (by mass) of carbon, .15% Silicon, .75% manganese, 0.035% phosphorous, 0.04% Sulfur, 0.8% Chromium, 0.15% Molybdenum, and has a tensile strength of 714 MegaPascals.

    A36 is a common carbon steel alloy. Its composition is

    Component Elements Properties Metric English Comments
    Carbon, C <= 0.290 % <= 0.290 %
    Copper, Cu >= 0.020 % >= 0.020 %
    Iron, Fe >= 98.0 % >= 98.0 %
    Manganese, Mn 0.85 - 1.20 % 0.85 - 1.20 %
    Phosphorous, P <= 0.040 % <= 0.040 %
    Silicon, Si 0.15 - 0.40 % 0.15 - 0.40 %
    Sulfur, S <= 0.050 % <= 0.050 %

    Some of its mechanical properties are:
    Mechanical Properties Metric English Comments
    Hardness, Brinell 119 - 159 119 - 159 based on conversion from tensile strength
    Hardness, Rockwell B 67.0 - 83.0 67.0 - 83.0 based on conversion from tensile strength
    Tensile Strength at Break 400 - 552 MPa 58000 - 80000 psi
    Tensile Strength, Yield >= 221 MPa >= 32000 psi

    So "carbon steel" has a lower tensile strength than stainless, at 400-552 MPa.

    Now, the composition of the Gibeon meteorite is given as 91,8% Fe; 7,7% Ni; 0,5% Co; 0,04% P; 2,4 ppm Ir; 1,97 ppm Ga; 0,111 ppm Ge

    That's a LOT of Nickel, first of all. The Iridium and Gallium are probably insignificant. But what is the tensile strength? If they tested it, did they take enough samples to make sure the tensile strength was consistent throughout the source material? Maybe a qualified, experienced machinist could tell by how the material responds to the machining processes, but that's still a huge difference between this highly unusual alloy and more commonly specified alloys.

    Now, having said all that, the research this post represents got me to read this article about the guns - https://robbreport.com/lifestyle/spo...photos-231849/ - which says The only parts of the Big Bang pistol set that aren’t made of meteorite are the springs, sears, barrels, hammer strut, pins, screws, and slide rails. Everything else—slides, frames, triggers, magazine release, and grips—is pure Gibeon. Speaking of frightening, the guns’ first test firing was a bit daunting.

    Which changes the whole metallurgical question radically. The tensile strength is obviously the most important for the barrels. The modulus of elasticity matters for the springs. Hardness matters a lot for the slide rails, etc. etc. The slide, frame, etc. metallurgy is probably a lot more forgiving.
    Ah, the ASTM (American Society of Trade Materials). Would you believe I served on a subcommittee of the ASTM for 2 years back in the early 2000s? I used to could quote you the ASTM standard recipe for ceramic used in toilets and that’s about all that position was worth . . . . well, that and a resumé builder.
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    “Violent crime is feasible only when it’s victims are cowards. A victim who fights back makes the whole business impractical. - Col Jeff Cooper

    With over 200 million firearms in private possession, in addition to a collective ammo round count of over a trillion rounds, it should be obvious that we in the firearm community and culture are NOT the problem!

    Governments don’t create human rights; they either recognize them or suppress them

  7. #26
    oso
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHorse View Post
    I'm not entirely ignorant of science, thanks for asking. But I wasn't able to find a way to watch that full episode; if anyone knows of a way, I'd be interested to watch it.

    But here's a clearer explanation of my point. 4140 stainless is a commonly used steel in the firearms industry. A few seconds searching gave the following information. Here's the composition data:

    Chemical composition(mass fraction)(wt.%) of the ASTM 4140

    C
    Si
    Mn
    P
    S
    Cr Ni
    0.38-0.43 0.15-0.35 0.75-1.0 0.035 0.04 0.8-1.1
    Mo Al Cu Nb Ti V Ce
    0.15-0.25
    N Co Pb B Other

    And equally or perhaps more importantly, here are the mechanical properties:

    Yield
    Rp0.2 (MPa)
    Tensile
    Rm (MPa)
    Impact
    KV/Ku (J)
    Elongation
    A (%)
    Reduction in cross section on fracture
    Z (%)
    As-Heat-Treated Condition Brinell hardness (HBW)
    547 (≥) 714 (≥) 22 13 32 Solution and Aging, Annealing, Ausaging, Q+T,etc 344

    So 4140 stainless is .3% (by mass) of carbon, .15% Silicon, .75% manganese, 0.035% phosphorous, 0.04% Sulfur, 0.8% Chromium, 0.15% Molybdenum, and has a tensile strength of 714 MegaPascals.

    A36 is a common carbon steel alloy. Its composition is

    Component Elements Properties Metric English Comments
    Carbon, C <= 0.290 % <= 0.290 %
    Copper, Cu >= 0.020 % >= 0.020 %
    Iron, Fe >= 98.0 % >= 98.0 %
    Manganese, Mn 0.85 - 1.20 % 0.85 - 1.20 %
    Phosphorous, P <= 0.040 % <= 0.040 %
    Silicon, Si 0.15 - 0.40 % 0.15 - 0.40 %
    Sulfur, S <= 0.050 % <= 0.050 %

    Some of its mechanical properties are:
    Mechanical Properties Metric English Comments
    Hardness, Brinell 119 - 159 119 - 159 based on conversion from tensile strength
    Hardness, Rockwell B 67.0 - 83.0 67.0 - 83.0 based on conversion from tensile strength
    Tensile Strength at Break 400 - 552 MPa 58000 - 80000 psi
    Tensile Strength, Yield >= 221 MPa >= 32000 psi

    So "carbon steel" has a lower tensile strength than stainless, at 400-552 MPa.

    Now, the composition of the Gibeon meteorite is given as 91,8% Fe; 7,7% Ni; 0,5% Co; 0,04% P; 2,4 ppm Ir; 1,97 ppm Ga; 0,111 ppm Ge

    That's a LOT of Nickel, first of all. The Iridium and Gallium are probably insignificant. But what is the tensile strength? If they tested it, did they take enough samples to make sure the tensile strength was consistent throughout the source material? Maybe a qualified, experienced machinist could tell by how the material responds to the machining processes, but that's still a huge difference between this highly unusual alloy and more commonly specified alloys.

    Now, having said all that, the research this post represents got me to read this article about the guns - https://robbreport.com/lifestyle/spo...photos-231849/ - which says The only parts of the Big Bang pistol set that aren’t made of meteorite are the springs, sears, barrels, hammer strut, pins, screws, and slide rails. Everything else—slides, frames, triggers, magazine release, and grips—is pure Gibeon. Speaking of frightening, the guns’ first test firing was a bit daunting.

    Which changes the whole metallurgical question radically. The tensile strength is obviously the most important for the barrels. The modulus of elasticity matters for the springs. Hardness matters a lot for the slide rails, etc. etc. The slide, frame, etc. metallurgy is probably a lot more forgiving.

    Do you really think Cabot Guns spent several hundred thousand on the material to build the pistols and didn't do any testing ?
    BangBang likes this.

  8. #27
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    If I had that much "discretionary cash" available I believe I would rather buy all the guns on my grail list.

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    olfarhors likes this.
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  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by oso View Post
    Do you really think Cabot Guns spent several hundred thousand on the material to build the pistols and didn't do any testing ?
    I don't know; I have read a lot about these guns, but none of it mentioned one word about testing. But given the nature of the material, how would they know how much testing is enough?
    "It is wonderful, in the event of a street fight, how few bullets seem to hit the men they are aimed at." Ranch Life and the Hunting Trail, Theodore Roosevelt, 1888

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickenbacher39 View Post
    LOL. Good luck. Cabot makes some nice stuff though.
    Are we there yet?
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  11. #30
    oso
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHorse View Post
    I don't know; I have read a lot about these guns, but none of it mentioned one word about testing. But given the nature of the material, how would they know how much testing is enough?
    Contact Alchemy Custom they make Cabot Guns maybe Rob or someone else will have the patience to explain it to you. Don't know what to tell you, another thread where Ghosthorse knows all and everyone else is wrong.

 

 
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