Why Caliber Wars Do Not Matter!
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    Why Caliber Wars Do Not Matter!



    pretty good info.
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    Thank you Lefty, I appreciate you posting that video. Very interesting to hear what people that actually know what they're talkin about as far as calibers and velocities and muzzle energy think works best. I have been saying some of the same information that they went over on the video for many years and it's nice to hear that I was not completely off base. I used some of those theories with students particularly ladies who are wondering what they should buy for handgun. With modern ammunition technology in a modern firearm you do not need a large caliber to protect yourself.

    I am pretty sure this video will trigger a reaction from some of our armchair ammunition experts. I'm sure many of us have all heard the stories about how it has to be a 45 or 357 because that's the only thing you can count on to stop a bad guy. This theory has been proven to not hold water many many times over the years but I guess some people just are set in their ways.

    Don
    Last edited by BangBang; 04-11-2019 at 07:26 PM.
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    I will be the first to say I would look at velocity and energy foot pounds in ammo. But hearing the experts explain to you that as long as it penetrates and expands to what you are wanting, then anything more is just waste.
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    I have heard virtually all of that before. Matches a lot of what I've said many times.

    What I find odd is that they never mentioned a very important aspect of anatomy that stands between the muzzle and the vital zone of an attacker. Bones. Momentum gets you through bones. Bigger caliber gets you more mass, more momentum.
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    The effectiveness of a round is determined by how much energy it transfers to the target. a FMJ that penetrates the body still has energy to continue so it hasn't transferred all it's energy to the target. If you have a round that impacts the target with 400 ft lbs of energy and continues out the back with 200, then you've only dumped 200 into the target. An expanding round with the same energy dumping all 400 ft lbs into the target will be twice as effective. Sure expansion and hydrostatic/hydrodynamic shock improves how the energy is transferred and the bigger hole is a bigger drain for blood, It's the energy transfer that makes the difference.
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    the Federal employee stated the organic gelatin wasn’t a representation of the human body. It’s just a testing grounds that allows all bullets to show their effects on a constant media a level playing field to speak. Why the FBI states that they want a bullet to expand to a certain diameter and penetration to be 12”-18” is due to the correlations of real world shootings. So the bullets that performed well on the streets expanded and had a penetrating depth of 12”-18”. Cool, now we have baseline to work with, all good self defense ammo should expand to this diameter and reach this certain depth.

    And since the bad bad guys that got shot and was stopped by these bullets had clothing and bones and fat and hair, that says something about the tests as well. Sure everyone of those bad guys had ribs that were pierced, maybe even the sternum. And I’m sure even a few bad guys was shot through the side or arms to get to the CNS. Not to mention the tests with the gelatin behind auto glass and plywood and other barriers tested. Look at Critical Duty, the bonded bullet that is designed to be barrier blind in duty sized pistols. Works much different than the Critical Defense line that really isn’t design to work against barriers. A lot of testing went into these. And I beloved that it was to keep people safe, not to just try to sell stuff.

    Over all all we have to look at the data, and if it’s consistent and true then we really should change the way we think about calibers and ammo.

    i use to raise rabbits, show rabbits. I would try to get secret ingredients to give my animals the edge. I would add this and that. Then one day I went to the Purina factory in St Louis. I saw how they would test the animals. They would weigh the animals, weight how much they ate, weight what they peed and pooped out, and then do chemical analysis of that! They knew what the animal needed to do what it was breed to do and do it in a more efficient way than I ever could. So I just got Purina Rabbit Food and went on. Less headache for me. Like this video shows, this is what works in real self defense shootings on real bodies. You can believe it or call it “fake news” cause you once hear about this guy doing this when shot with that.

    Lefty
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHorse View Post
    I have heard virtually all of that before. Matches a lot of what I've said many times.

    What I find odd is that they never mentioned a very important aspect of anatomy that stands between the muzzle and the vital zone of an attacker. Bones. Momentum gets you through bones. Bigger caliber gets you more mass, more momentum.
    actually, at the end you will hear the employees say that in the real world there is no real difference in the “energy dump” because it’s not high enough with pistol calibers. They state the human body’s elasticity will soak up the etrxa “energy”. Got to believe them on this.
    lefty
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemakr40 View Post
    The effectiveness of a round is determined by how much energy it transfers to the target. a FMJ that penetrates the body still has energy to continue so it hasn't transferred all it's energy to the target. If you have a round that impacts the target with 400 ft lbs of energy and continues out the back with 200, then you've only dumped 200 into the target. An expanding round with the same energy dumping all 400 ft lbs into the target will be twice as effective. Sure expansion and hydrostatic/hydrodynamic shock improves how the energy is transferred and the bigger hole is a bigger drain for blood, It's the energy transfer that makes the difference.
    No, it's not. Energy transferred might become a useful metric at rifle velocities, but what makes handgun rounds effective is disrupting the circulatory system or the central nervous system.

    20 gauge birdshot has 1200 to 1300 foot pounds. Do you trust that energy deposit to incapacitate an attacker?

    When I was getting my physics degree, I calculated the energy of a running man compared to a variety of projectiles. Energy doesn't begin to compare until the projectile is a slug. But lots of people get stopped by handguns. It's not just because of energy. It's what you do with that energy. Use it to blow out one lung, and incapacitation is far from guaranteed. Use it to remove an atrium, and incapacitation is virtually guaranteed. An expanding round that dumps 400 foot pounds into the gun or shoulder musculature won't do nearly as much to incapacitate an attacker as a big, heavy handgun bullet that goes straight through the sternum and hits an important part of the circulatory system.

    There's a lot more to it than energy values. And hydrodynamic shock doesn't even happen at handgun velocities.
    "It is wonderful, in the event of a street fight, how few bullets seem to hit the men they are aimed at." Ranch Life and the Hunting Trail, Theodore Roosevelt, 1888

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty_Red View Post
    actually, at the end you will hear the employees say that in the real world there is no real difference in the “energy dump” because it’s not high enough with pistol calibers. They state the human body’s elasticity will soak up the etrxa “energy”. Got to believe them on this.
    lefty
    Apparently I didn't explain myself clearly. Momentum is not the same as energy. Energy is mass times velocity times velocity, or to say it differently, energy is mass times the square of the velocity. Momentum is simply mass times velocity. Energy is a stronger function of velocity. Something can have a lot of energy and still be very easy to stop, like birdshot. Something with a lot of momentum is hard to stop. "Harder to stop" roughly translates to "will penetrate far enough to hit and damage vital organs."

    I do believe them about elasticity soaking up energy, as my post just before this shows. But they completely ignore the fact that the vital organs that need to be disrupted all lie behind significant amounts of bone. You can use a supercomputer and a cargo ship full of ballistic gel to design the perfect hollowpoint for your caliber, but if it hits bone and gets knocked way out of shape before it hits any tissue that remotely resembles gel, well, all that work is for naught. You've got a lump 'o lead. And if it's small, it's more likely to be knocked off course, away from the vitals you aimed at. Big bullets are harder to deflect, so they maintain their path better.
    Last edited by GhostHorse; 04-11-2019 at 09:14 PM.
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    "It is wonderful, in the event of a street fight, how few bullets seem to hit the men they are aimed at." Ranch Life and the Hunting Trail, Theodore Roosevelt, 1888

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHorse View Post
    Apparently I didn't explain myself clearly. Momentum is not the same as energy. Energy is mass times velocity times velocity, or to say it differently, energy is mass times the square of the velocity. Momentum is simply mass times velocity. Energy is a stronger function of velocity. Something can have a lot of energy and still be very easy to stop, like birdshot. Something with a lot of momentum is hard to stop. "Harder to stop" roughly translates to "will penetrate far enough to hit and damage vital organs."

    I do believe them about elasticity soaking up energy, as my post just before this shows. But they completely ignore the fact that the vital organs that need to be disrupted all lie behind significant amounts of bone. You can use a supercomputer and a cargo ship full of ballistic gel to design the perfect hollowpoint for your caliber, but if it hits bone and gets knocked way out of shape before it hits any tissue that remotely resembles gel, well, all that work is for naught. You've got a lump 'o lead. And if it's small, it's more likely to be knocked off course, away from the vitals you aimed at. Big bullets are harder to deflect, so they maintain their path better.
    i still don’t think you understand why they use organic ballistic gelatin. It’s not a representation of the human body. It’s a control environment in which a bullet can perform on. And then another bullet, and another bullet, huge sample sizes. And all on a equal media that takes away outside variables. Basically a test lab.

    Now we got the 12”-18” penetration requirements from long time FBI and other law enforcement agencies that studied the effects of bullets in dead bad guys. They saw what gave the good guys the advantage and what was needed. And once again, these bad guys had bones, and clothes, and skin, and hair. Not one of them was made up of ballistic gelatin! But if you shoot the bullets that work into ballistic gelatin, they seem to have penetration 12”-18”. So we take that correlation and use it as a baseline for testing bullets.

    As for bullets being knocked around by bones, that doesn’t happen, with .355” and larger bullets, in handguns much. It may have some effect on smaller calibers out of a handgun. But I have shot pigs and deer with a 22lr and it go straight through the skull and tissue to the over side of the skull and even exit. It’s not unreasonable to think a spinning projectile going fast can penetrate the sternum and ribs of a human and still reach the CNS, happens alll the time. And same with arms and legs and backs and butts. A modern bullet will defeat those and get to the CNS at typical self defense ranges and using quality ammo.

    And as as far as keeping a perfect shape to be effective, that’s just not needed. I doubt the spinal cord or brain stem would know it it was hit with a hollow point or round ball. It’s getting there that is the object of the bullet. And it doesn’t have to be pretty to be effective. Most recovered bullets for game and humans are just mangled! I am on one Chicago Coroner’s list for a couple of bullets. It’s not a long lost but his reply is always, Don’t hold your breath!” Getting a pretty flowered hollow point from a body is hard, according to the experts I know.

    A lot of stories with bullets bouncing off skulls and being redirected by ribs comes from the days of lead round nosed 38s moving at around 600fps.

    lefty
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