Why Caliber Wars Do Not Matter! - Page 6
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Thread: Why Caliber Wars Do Not Matter!

  1. #51
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    I don't need no dang hollow points....

    Lefty_Red and BigBlue like this.
    "Guns are a lot like parachutes ~ If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

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    Everyone wants to argue with the experts until they are hit by a car and need medical assistance. And even then, I think some here would question and refuse that treatment because their grandpa’s bunk mate had a cousin that said this was the best way to transplant an organ! LOL

    Lefty


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    I’ll be needing that for squirrels and such........

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty_Red View Post
    Everyone wants to argue with the experts until they are hit by a car and need medical assistance. And even then, I think some here would question and refuse that treatment because their grandpa’s bunk mate had a cousin that said this was the best way to transplant an organ! LOL

    Lefty


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    Don't get the idea that I'm trashing the video. Firstly, my top 2 choices for bullets in defense loads are the Gold Dots and HSTs. But the reality is that the FBR has a closer relationship with those 2 products and the companies that make them, which is now essentially 1 company since Federal and SPEER are owned by the same group. Since I can only buy the Gold Dots for the loads I want assembled by me, naturally, favor the Gold Dot. But I have had access to the HST bullets that were "pulled" from their original loadings for one reason or another.

    I might suggest at this point for those with short attention spans that you might want to skip the rest of this post because as far as I'm concerned, there's no need to fear elaboration unless you simply do not posses the requisite amount of confidence or knowledge on the subject.

    How exactly do you define, "Expert." Can you call yourself a peer? From what I'm seeing in the majority of the post in this thread, the guys are maybe getting placed on a higher pedestal than they deserve to be on. The fella from Lucky Gunner mentions the Clear Ballistics gel being slightly different from calibrated ordnance gel, but of not enough difference to override the excuses he gives for using the Clear Ballistics products, that when you get right down to it, is simply convenience. That, I'm afraid won't cut it! Maybe Google ALL of the info relating to Clear Ballistics Gel vs. Calibrated 10% Ordnance Gel. Calibrated Ordnance gel requires specific test parameters, including a specific temperature range. The Clear Ballistics product does. If you search for comparisons of Clear Ballistic's product to the real thing, and more recent than what I'm aware of, please let me know. Because the latest info we have show that the results are not so similar as Mr. Lucky Gunner suggests. Different in terms of penetration and expansion.

    As to the "experts", there is one in the video, Johan Boden. The other Federal representative in the video is merely a product line mgr. and like most industries, he gets his info in meetings with the R&D guys or the occasional seminar. But while Mr. Boden seems very well informed, he's not really telling us anything new. What he is telling us comes from FBR input with things like elasticity and the ability for human flesh to expand and contract without tearing because handgun load energy doesn't yield enough of it to make anything else worthy of consideration. That goes directly back to the FBR and the IWBA. And again, the statement of energy that is "higher than necessary" simply gets dissipated through the flesh. Let's see, I'm not a biologist, nor a physician, but I believe that I heard once that there are other things in the human body other than flesh. Obviously, rupturing a major artery can be devastating, but counting solely on the permanent crush cavity caused by the average diameter of the expanded projectile in penetration, or major drops in blood pressure, just don't hold up to what most everyone can agree on: disrupting the brain from the central nervous system. It is the EXACT reason that in defense shooting training, hits aimed at the COM are what we strive for.First and foremost. Then we get to the Thoracic Chest Cavity where on either side of the center-line and forward to it, we have a heart and lungs that can also effect rapid incapacitation. But again, in this question, nothing is more rapid than severing the spine with an expanded bullet. So, how much penetration do we need to do that, 18"? I have no problem with a recommendation for 12" minimum, NOR the concept that we should shoot until the threat is stopped, but because Mr. Maddox took a 115 gr. Winchester SilverTip through the arm and shoulder that came within just a few millimeters from severing the aorta, do our defense loads all need to penetrate so deep to make up for the FBR's poor selection of 9mm ammunition in 1986? As I've already pointed out, both the Secret Service and the Illinois State police were not having any problems putting criminal adversaries down with the loads they were using at the same exact time of the SilverTip failure in 1986. And even then, had the SilverTip not penetrated through the arm/shoulder first, Mr Maddox would have expired far more rapidly. This should get you to thinking, because the permanent crush cavity was there, so was the major drop in blood pressure. And after the autopsy, the wound was deemed unsurvivable. Yet with that bullet lodged so near the heart, Mr. Maddox went on to shoot several agents that included fatalities.

    Honestly, some of us have been involved, at least as interested spectators, to all of these developments as one of the "experts" put it, back to the 1980s. More specifically, the "Miami Shootout" of 1986. One thing that should be crystal clear for folks that didn't start shooting handguns in just the last 5 or 10 years, is that while the FBR has seemingly made all of these new discoveries, well, since they had the most to learn, that would seem to be a natural occurrence. You might also want to Google the Texas DPS evaluation/selection for loads to replace the 125 gr. .357 Magnum JHP that they had absolute confidence in. It precedes any development from the FBR by at least 10 years!

    I don't do convenient. I do not take a lazy approach and start believing that what reinforces my personal opinions is correct. And there are some even trying to justify the same old worn-out argument that because a .451" 230 gr. FMJ is much heavier and greater in diameter, it is more effective in wounding. That myth was debunked long ago from statistics kept by the various militaries involved shows that it MIGHT be 1 or 2% better than a 124 gr. 9mm FMJ. The reason? Just as Chris Kyle proved, a longer bullet in relation to its diameter is more likely to tumble in human beings. Can it be soley relied upon? The common use of JHP defense loads answews that.

    No one, and I mean no one has investigated this more than Charles Schwartz who is a retired Federal LEO who happened to minor in physics at Ohio State University. So not only can water testing be used, it replicates the effects of firing into Calibrated Ordnance Gel to above 95% probability. The evidence? Since he knew his opinion alone would not and should not be convincing, he has studied every bit of scientific evidence and events ranging back to the Thompson LaGarde tests from more than a century ago. From that testing, the United States went on to select the .45 ACP for military use. So does that mean it put cattle in a Chicago stockyard down faster than the competing cartridges? You tell me? Particularly those who are predisposed in thinking that heavy/slow is always better than light/fast. One thing you will find consistent is the question of momentum that does not favor one over the other. Even in the case of FMJ bullets.

    The Video was definitely entertaining It does not, however, really bring anything new to the table. My negative view is not about the video, nor some of you hearing things you haven't learned before now. My problem is with the source, that being the misinformation given to the FBR from Martin Fackler and the IWBA. I discount their BS as fast as some of you can dismiss physicists with PhDs like the Courtneys, both husband and wife, and a number of physicists before them,as well as some common sense conclusions from working stiff cops like M&S. One greatly ignored opinion that came from Ed Sanow was that with maybe a margin of error of +/- 50 FPS my own calculations, he concluded that when we get to the deadliest loads that have been used in defense shootings there is one consistency: the loads gave around 500 Ft/lbs of KE at the muzzle with up to 600 Ft/lbs not being excessive. Solely because the "EXTRA" energy can be disposed of. I think not!

    Moreover, if the video leads you back to the information given in this thread . . . obviously I had some problems with that from over 40 years of handgunning anhttps://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/firing-line/409419-ballistic-test-handgun-ammo.htmld the science that has com or gone since!
    Last edited by 57K; 04-15-2019 at 11:59 AM.
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    Just wanted to point out a typing error since corrected. For margin of error in the next to last paragraph I typed +/- 50% which obviously should have been +/- 50 FPS.

  6. #55
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    This info kind of supports the original conjecture that caliber wars are irrelevant using data from Greg Ellifritz's 10-year stopping power study.

    "To anger Conservatives, lie to them. To anger liberal, tell them the truth."
    -Fine! I said it! You happy, Troll!
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    Since this thread won't die, what about another aspect of the "caliber war". What would you do when you run out of bullets? Are you likely to do more damage throwing a .38 revolver or a compact 9mm semi-auto? I think the .38 is likely to do more damage, so the .38 beats the 9mm in this caliber war.

    [no actual guns were harmed in the making of this hypothesis]

    [cue the guy with the dead horse graphic...]

  8. #57
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    Same ole argument, fast and little versus large and slow. Personally, I like large caliber at just barely subsonic speeds.
    jtg452 and 230JHP like this.
    Battle of Wanat: 10 years ago last 13 July, 1LT Brostram was killed in combat killing the last enemy combatant in the outpost. The LT went to the point of decision and made the difference that turned the tide of the battle. The original investigation found the Bde Cmdr, the Bn Cmdr and the Co Cmdr at fault for dereliction of duty. If you want to see what a sarcastic silver star citation reads like, pull up the company commander's silver star.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaBravoKS View Post
    ......... What would you do when you run out of bullets?.....]

    Good point!......
    I have had to use a gun only once in my life.....I charged out in the night (without thinking!!!) 2 burglars next door- Couldn't see well, targets were moving, wound up with an empty mag and one in the chamber in a single stack 380 Beretta.
    One got away, one went to jail.
    Now days....I carry mo bullets.
    230JHP and DeltaBravoKS like this.
    a.k.a. Higgy Baby

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    I think I'll continue listening to the physicist- and the historians. Big, slow and heavy has been working for centuries. Big slow and heavy also tend to be more accurate at longer ranges. Something about the heavier bullets being more resistant to wind changes and such.
    230JHP and GhostHorse like this.
    Student of the ancient Chinese art of Bang Pow.

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    LOL, with a .380 you have to get close.
    Yissnakk likes this.
    Battle of Wanat: 10 years ago last 13 July, 1LT Brostram was killed in combat killing the last enemy combatant in the outpost. The LT went to the point of decision and made the difference that turned the tide of the battle. The original investigation found the Bde Cmdr, the Bn Cmdr and the Co Cmdr at fault for dereliction of duty. If you want to see what a sarcastic silver star citation reads like, pull up the company commander's silver star.

 

 
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