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Thread: Why Caliber Wars Do Not Matter!

  1. #41
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    Great...it was bad enough when I had to learn to fear aggressive Jell-O; now I have to fear Milk Jugs.

    I thought that was only a problem if it was still attached to the Cow?
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    NULLI SECUNDUS

  2. #42
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    Apologies all, I did go off on a tangent or 3. The point being, that all the hoopla about FBI gel and barriers barrier tests is that the example was already set for them by the TX DPS.

    A quick chronology post the 1986 Miami Shootout. 9mm 147 gr. Subsonic JHPs, 10mm Lite, .40 S&W subsonic , .40 S&W Lite, and finally, back to the future with 124 gr. JHP +P 9mm. Geez, all those tests and CONTRACTS to choose what they should have chosen in the first place? And before so many tactical errors before the Miami confrontation erupted? Every load they've chosen with the exception of the HR Teams getting custom 1911s chambered in .45 ACP has pretty much been a bust. Thank you Martin Fackler and your IWBA.

    There are beneficial things that can come from shooting the correct gel, not just any garden variety, but the IWBA has an established track record for omitting certain aspects of testing simply because they weren't determined to meet the IWBA criteria. Here's an example, what would you rather go into combat with, A 165 gr. .40 S&W lite load at around 975 FPS and 348 Ft/lbs of KE or a 155 gr. JHP load at around 1175 FPS and 475 Ft/lbs of KE. Well, if the 165 gr load gives deeper penetration, it is thus is the better load.

    And then, don't let your eyes deceive. Watch the reaction of the gel block test on YouTube or wherever when a 348 Ft/lb JHP impacts vs when the 475 ft/lb JHPs impacts. But, KE is doesn't factor unless its at 2000 FPS or higher? So, the IWBA holds the opinion that the additional energy is nothing and if the 348 Ft/lb load has penetration half an inch longer, it is the better choice?

    Maybe it would help to know that Martin Fackler was simply a battlefield surgeon who somehow became a terminal ballistics guru form all of the wounds he treated form FMJ bullets. And even then, if he ever had an original idea, it took up until just before Chris Kyle was murdered for the US Army to finally see the light, when Kyle proposed that the Sierra 77 gr. HPBT MatchKing w/cannelure would effectively tumble out to 300 yards so long as it leaves the muzzle at 2700 FPS. Not once as an Army trauma surgeon did Martin Fackler learn anything, really. Certainly nothing profound. He was a proponent of the 5.56mm round because of the effect from tumbling, but we know now that more often than not, the 55 to 62 gr. FMJ bullets weren't nearly as effective as they had been predicted to be by such gurus. And 6 years after Chris Kyle's death we don't have everyone running around looking to replace the 5.56mm NATO round, regardless of the fact that common sense, and his experience as a SEAL, with the most confirmed kills in US Military sniping history, had enough persuasive power to at least get some consideration, while Dr. Fackler was exposed to all of those wounds and corpses and never came up with an original idea of his own. But we need to worship his mantra for selecting the best defense ammo?

    Let's see, no magic illusions, or maybe delusions, just plain facts going back to the .40 S&W loads. At 975 FPS with a 165 gr. JHP that load has a momentum of .714 Lb-seconds. The 155 at 1175 FPS has .809 Lb-seconds of momentum while the IWBA would tell you that the greater mass of a 165 gr. bullet makes it the better choice. Rarely do they even consider momentum.

    But when the Street Stoppers reports were coming in, Fackler and the IWBA had issues stemming from things we weren't really informed of. I don't believe in M&S as agents of the gospel, they were just a couple of working stiff cops who networked with other working stiff cops to get the data they reported. So, in typical fashion, Fackler and the IWBA DEMAND access to the data that would eventually lead to LE personnel from across the country leaking that data to M&S. So again, as per their MO, the IWBA tried to rake M&S over the coals simply because they wouldn't share their data with the IWBA, same song an dance with the Stasbourg Goat Tests. Did the actually occur or not? Or does it even really matter? Almost as far back as we've had the instrumentation technology, scientists have been implanting human male size animals (Pigs and whitetail deer and dogs in some cases) with with receptor devices. They know that a pressure wave is created because it is fact that a JHP will shed a majority of its energy within the 1st to 15th centimeter of penetration. The better the JHP puts the brakes on with expansion while still having the mass and ability to penetrate deeply enough; That pressure wave, provided that the thoracic cavity is impacted, can be verified and has been with transducers that have only gotten better over time and displayed on oscilloscopes and now computer monitors. While as you might imagine, the closer the transducer is to the wound, the greater the pressure will be. But it's still measurable out to the farthest extremities. So is that Magic, propaganda or simply what a good number of physicists, not doctors who probably never distinguished themselves in their grad. class rankings, have been writing about for decades. But who is more likely to get research money? And in case you've never been in the military, the doctors that serve didn't necessarily graduate at the top of their class and without a great deal of education in the science of Physics.

    So, enter the Fackler lead disciple, Duncan MacPherson who had a good many years of experience in aeronautical engineering. He went so far as attempting to prove the stopping power record of the .357 magnum was a myth! Whom did he collect his data and suppositions from? Firstly CHiPs by reviewing Officer Involved Shooting reports and examining corpses, mostly cadavers when possible. didn't matter how many times a cadaver had been shot, but somehow his conclusion was that the 180 gr. JHP SUBSONIC as used by CHiPs was more effective than what the .357 Magnum with 125 gr. JHPs had been when they were commonly used. So, as far as any Law Enforcement Agency you examine for Officer Involved shooting, who you gonna give the greater credibility to, because if a single fatal round effected the most rapid incapacitations, while not penetrating much over 10" well, naturally the data was flawed according to the IWBA. I can tell you this, if under attack by savage criminals and you have to circle the wagons. Which group will bring the greatest relief? The FBR and ChiPs or the Texas DPS and Rangers.

    Okay, I saved the icing for last in a post that was too long several paragraphs ago. Firstly, I am a graduate of a 2 year tech college for Design Drafting Technology that started out as a branch of Texas A&M. That's it. I do not have an engineering degree or license. I have held a Texas license connected to my occupation and went on to do design work for Architects and Engineers. I don't have a PhD in physics, in other words. My experience in hydraulic calculations and other pressure types related to the relavent engineering disciplines is fairly substantial, including bailing out more than a few engineers by designing for them within their own occupational specialty. Just some background where I did benefit from the number of different courses in math I was able to get in those 2 years and later went back for a year of electronics and finally, simply because I could arrange my work schedule, I went back again to the local branch we have here for Machining Technology, in case someday I want to pursue customizing 1911s or Hi-Powers upon retirement.

    So, I was once in this debate with a guy who believed that Fackler, MacPherson, the Ballistic Dentist, et al, pointed out that MacPherson had determined that the likelihood that M&S had factually collected, sorted, collated their data whatever, was only likely to be ONE in THREE TRILLION!!! I laughed so hard I almost wet my pants. And in hoping to shed some light for my debating partner, I used a table for TNT Explosive events compared to historical seismic events that can be done simply enough by examining the logarithmic scales for both thinking a mental image of such things might shed some light on a statement for probabilities, even one as ridiculous as 1 in 3 trillion. It started out simple with smaller scale explosions, hand grenades and such up to seismic events that would destroy the planet and the former soviet Union claiming at that time that they had created the super-bomb at 50 Megatons of TNT explosive force. While again, following along in logarithmic scale ascending even higher than a 50 megaton explosion or a planet destroying earthquake not even reaching the level of the log of 3 Trillion. By the time we got there, this scale that had tabulated these events got to the theoretical level and even beyond such an event in Science Fiction. So run that M&S probability thingy by me again!

    That's your IWBA boys and girls.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHorse View Post
    But killing isn't the aim, unless you're an assassin. Lots of people have been killed by people using a .22LR, but how much evil did those dying people do before getting cold?

    Having said that, I have to confess that this information influenced my thinking quite a bit.

    https://mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm Relevant quote: "All I've said all along through the past 15 pages or so is that I've seen the 9mm and .380 often fragment or stop short of reaching the vitals but I don't think I've ever seen a .45 do so."

    Note the words "often" and "don't think I've ever."

    If you trust energy, use 20 or 12 gauge birdshot. I trust punching as big a hole as possible at least to the vitals, so I trust bullets of more than 150 grains and diameters starting with 4 whenever possible.
    The aim is rapid incapacitation. If rapid enough, there can be side effects, naturally, including death!

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  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHorse View Post
    But killing isn't the aim, unless you're an assassin. Lots of people have been killed by people using a .22LR, but how much evil did those dying people do before getting cold?

    Having said that, I have to confess that this information influenced my thinking quite a bit.

    https://mouseguns.com/deadmeat.htm Relevant quote: "All I've said all along through the past 15 pages or so is that I've seen the 9mm and .380 often fragment or stop short of reaching the vitals but I don't think I've ever seen a .45 do so."

    Note the words "often" and "don't think I've ever."

    If you trust energy, use 20 or 12 gauge birdshot. I trust punching as big a hole as possible at least to the vitals, so I trust bullets of more than 150 grains and diameters starting with 4 whenever possible.
    I carry a .357 mag with a load I can shoot correctly which just so happens pushes 500+ ft pounds of energy. If I have to draw my weapon in self defense I plan to place as many shots on target or targets as it takes to end the threat which does not necessarily mean death. unfortunately death will occur in some instances. If I am in not imminent bodily harm or death I will just season them with some pepper spray lol

  6. #45
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    Good lord. Are there refreshments during intermission? Sometimes I'm not exactly noted for brevity, but dang.

    Quote Originally Posted by 57K View Post
    And then, don't let your eyes deceive. Watch the reaction of the gel block test on YouTube or wherever when a 348 Ft/lb JHP impacts vs when the 475 ft/lb JHPs impacts. But, KE is doesn't factor unless its at 2000 FPS or higher? So, the IWBA holds the opinion that the additional energy is nothing and if the 348 Ft/lb load has penetration half an inch longer, it is the better choice?
    You're muddying the waters. The statement, by several including the apparently unquestionable experts in the video (with whom I agree on this point), was that hydrostatic shock doesn't occur until over 2000 fps. Stands to reason, too. Many flexible materials can be stretched or bent until a certain point, and then they crack/tear/permanently deform. Heck, that's why SAMMI publishes pressure limits - too much impulse force, and metal will deform or crack.

    In short, yes, there are absolutely times when a less powerful round will do more to stop an opponent than a far more powerful round. That - among other reasons - is why I like .45 ACP but wouldn't carry full power .44 Magnums.

    Oh, and since you brought it up, my background is B.S. Physics, M.S. Systems Research and Development (including course work in experiment design and data analysis) and >20 years making my living in scientific/research institutions. No, I've never had to shoot anyone and hope to say that on the day I die. I'm not claiming I can't be wrong - only controlled experiments could really settle this, and they are both hugely unethical and really impossible. But energy, momentum, and ballistics are part of my stock in trade. For whatever that's worth.

    Big bullets rule. Little and fancy can't make up for momentum.
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  7. #46
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    I thought they barely ran, let alone staged wars...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry View Post


    I thought they barely ran, let alone staged wars...
    My wife had one when I met her. We eventually got married anyway. We traded that...uh...THING in on a pick up. We got 6K for it, about 5.5K more'n it was worth IMHO.
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  9. #48
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    GhostHorse; Good lord. Are there refreshments during intermission? Sometimes I'm not exactly noted for brevity, but dang.


    You're muddying the waters. The statement, by several including the apparently unquestionable experts in the video (with whom I agree on this point), was that hydrostatic shock doesn't occur until over 2000 fps. Stands to reason, too. Many flexible materials can be stretched or bent until a certain point, and then they crack/tear/permanently deform. Heck, that's why SAMMI publishes pressure limits - too much impulse force, and metal will deform or crack.

    Apparently Unquestionable Experts? Geez, I like that term! I guess it's good until you get the point where you find find that they are questionable? The word static, which I happen to have plenty of experience with in hydraulic calculations and design, usually implies lack of movement. So which waters did you have in mind?

    In short, yes, there are absolutely times when a less powerful round will do more to stop an opponent than a far more powerful round. That - among other reasons - is why I like .45 ACP but wouldn't carry full power .44 Magnums.

    Consider a submarine that dives too far below it's structural capability. Does it explode, or Implode? Enough external pressure can cause JHPs to collapse rather than expand. Try it again with something like a monolithic copper alloy bullet and it might upset your apple cart. Typically, I don't deal in generalities. Handloading, as an example would easily turn that rocket ship around.

    Oh, and since you brought it up, my background is B.S. Physics, M.S. Systems Research and Development (including course work in experiment design and data analysis) and >20 years making my living in scientific/research institutions. No, I've never had to shoot anyone and hope to say that on the day I die. I'm not claiming I can't be wrong - only controlled experiments could really settle this, and they are both hugely unethical and really impossible. But energy, momentum, and ballistics are part of my stock in trade. For whatever that's worth.

    Congrats! But as I'm sure you know, there is no degree in ballistics. For those who have completed the math for their bachelors, they won't find themselves overwhelmed with much of anything as far as the math of ballistics. That is something I did for a 2 year degree. Experience, innovation and particularly aptitude, usually show through, or not.

    Big bullets rule. Little and fancy can't make up for momentum.

    Well, considering that momentum can be manipulated by either Mass or Velocity, I'd say, and being generous, that statements about half right.

  10. #49
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    ...that's why a 1911 was designed to shoot FMJ. There's no expansion and it does its job.
    When I carry my .380, I carry it with FMJ. It's tough to get penetration as it is(there's no .380 +P) I do like the Corbon DPX 80gr. but penetration is only around 7.25 inches with 725 ft./#
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  11. #50
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    Great vid.
    Last edited by Zen Ape; 04-14-2019 at 08:02 AM.
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