Why Caliber Wars Do Not Matter! - Page 3
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Thread: Why Caliber Wars Do Not Matter!

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by NativeTexan View Post
    Well, I like 9x19. It's a good round in a small package, great for high cap guns, and it can push over 400 ft lbs. I'm not so paranoid that I have to tote a desert eagle in .50AE yet.
    This is the best that I have read yet , the FBI says 2 to the body and 1 to the head , in other words rapid shots with a pistol --- M1 Garand 1 shot

    I am walking , talking , living prof from 1 pellet from a low velocity 00 buck shot in the back put my face on the ground quick --- if that would have been a gun fight the shooter would have had time for a 2nd shot

    There is no " BEST " bullet --- just for GEL

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=DA-Auto;5402019]This is the best that I have read yet , the FBI says 2 to the body and 1 to the head , in other words rapid shots with a pistol --- M1 Garand 1 shotNo one is saying a 9mm is equal to a 30/06! You are comparing apples to the most exotic fruit you can imagine. Rifles act one way on the human body, and yes they are superior to pistol caliber, and the pistol another. Wish I could walk around with my rifle instead of a concealed pistol.

    I am walking , talking , living prof from 1 pellet from a low velocity 00 buck shot in the back put my face on the ground quick --- if that would have been a gun fight the shooter would have had time for a 2nd shotYeah, the large amount of people shot act that way. It’s not natural to be shot and our bodies go to shock right off the bat. But it doesn’t mean the 36 caliber lead ball is the best projectile for conceal carry.

    There is no " BEST " bullet --- just for Gno there isn’t, but there are some pretty good ones and a smart person would choice a modern design bullet.[/QUOTE]

    Old misquotes and false truths do not die.
    I’ll be needing that for squirrels and such........

  3. #23
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    This video basically covers why I haven't "upgraded" from .380 ACP to 9mm Luger in spite of many insisting that there is a substantial difference in overall effectiveness between the two.

    I had researched the matter thoroughly only to find that the only notable differences on paper are in energy foot-pounds. .380 ACP = roughly 200ft-lbs, 9mm Luger = roughly 400ft-lbs. So based on that, one would draw the conclusion that 9mm Luger possesses twice the energy and therefore twice the effectiveness of .380 ACP.
    However, if you look at the actual physical difference between what the two bullets do in any form of test medium from synthetic material to organic material, the difference strangely becomes negligible, with the 9mm Luger merely penetrating a few inches deeper at best, (typically between 2-5" when comparing similar ammo) ergo the massive difference in energy foot-pounds between the two is very misleading.

    Furthermore, bullet selection really does play a huge role, because some bullets that function fantastically in one cartridge are mediocre or even downright terrible in others. For example, the Federal HST bullet is fantastic in 9mm Luger, but in .380 ACP it expands too quickly and therefore doesn't penetrate well. Same goes for .45 ACP, albeit to a lesser extent.
    So some of the confusion when it comes to Caliber Wars comes from someone testing two of the same kind of bullets between two separate cartridges and when said bullet performs better in one than the other it serves to further the illusion that one is universally superior to the other, meanwhile if you test two separate kinds of bullets which just so happen to work better in two separate calibers side by side, the difference suddenly becomes less significant. (In other words, if you compare Federal HST bullets between 9mm Luger and .380 ACP, then it makes 9mm Luger significantly more powerful compared to the underpentrating .380, yet if you compare the 9mm HST to the Hornady XTP .380, the gap in penetration s reduced.)

    So yeah, I just can't see spending $250+ on a brand new pistol plus ammunition, then have to train with said new pistol until I become proficient with it, just to reap the marginal benefit of a few more inches of penetration. If I'm going to upgrade, then I'll upgrade to a .40 S&W or .45 ACP, because at least then I'll reap the more tangible benefit of having a larger diameter bullet which in turn will poke a bigger hole.
    Last edited by Tuco_Ramírez; 04-12-2019 at 02:33 PM.
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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty_Red View Post
    I will be the first to say I would look at velocity and energy foot pounds in ammo. But hearing the experts explain to you that as long as it penetrates and expands to what you are wanting, then anything more is just waste.
    I do not mean to be critical of any member here. But there are a number of inconsistencies in the report. At first, I was optimistic after seeing this on page 4:
    Amount of hits on target is critical and any agency considering choosing a new weapon, caliber or ammunition should certainly take into account how many rounds the weapon contains, recoil and ease of follow up shots and lastly the weight of the weapon and ammunition to be carried.
    This is totally consistent with what we find when applying the principles of Quantitative Ammunition Selection. As far as the predictions made, the percentages get higher by the number of rounds fired and landing where they'll do the most damage. It's not just about proving that FBI Gel Test data for penetration can be, with over 95% probability with over 800 data sets, you can determine the results yourself firing bullets into water.

    Then you get to page 7 and discussion of "The Human Target." Right off the bat in the first of the four kinds of Human tissue, the abbreviation appears for the IWBA. AKA Martin Fackler and Co. so it was no surprise to see the following:
    The Over-Penetration Myth:
    Fear that a bullet will pass through a target body and damage a bystander are unfounded.
    This is a totally false statement. You see, when the IWBA doesn't like something, they simply ignore it like expanding JHPs with less than 2000 FPS of velocity makes energy a non issue. Martin Fackler had no interest in the discussion of over-penetration because the first load he recommended to the FBI after 1986's Miami Shootout, was a subsonic 147 gr. JHP where there is clear evidence that not only were there incidents of over-penetrations, there were a number of resulting lawsuits stemming from it.

    If you expect the IWBA to give any factual data on the .357 Magnum, and even while it's a matter of record, go back to sleep, you're in dreamland. After the Miami Shootout we learned something else; the Federal agency that has the largest number of officer involved shooting events is the INS, not the FBI. Then, in all of recorded US LE history, no LE agency has had more experience in shootouts than The Texas Department of Public Safety, and that includes the Texas Rangers (not the baseball team). You see, all of this notoriety FBI testing receives, the TX DPS preceded them by a number of years resulting in the selection of the .357 SIG round and multiple models of SIG/Sauer pistols. What the DPS wanted first and foremost was an auto-pistol round that came closest to the 125 gr. JHPs in .357 Magnum fired from 4" revolvers. All of the common barriers were included in the DPS testing. This was however just before the new generation of bonded wonder-bullets other than the Hydra-Shok, Golden Saber and Black Talon. The .40 S&W as well as the .45 ACP did not pass enough tests for consideration. The only other caliber besides the .357 SIG to pass all of the tests was a Super-Sonic 147 gr. HP 9 x 19mm load that somehow got a +P+ over-Rating which the DPS passed on simply because they new the Media would include an extra-power connotation every time the round would be involved in a shooting. But, NO cartridge exceeded the performance of their former .357 Magnum loads. So why don't we here about that? Well, in a good many cases resulting in fatalities, 125 gr. .357 Magnum rounds penetrated to just over 10" on many occasions. Neither Martin Fackler nor the IWBA were contracted by the TX DPS because of their so-called expertise. In fact, the closer you look, the more you will find that just about anything that runs counter to the opinions of the IWBA will go ignored. Example, and by all means look at the actual tests. While the IWBA says that muzle energy, when velocity is lower than 2000 FPS is of no consequence. I guess it doesn't help when you hardly ever tests loads, where the results are commonly known, that are actually among the highest energy common defense calibers. On their chart, the ranking of the .357 Magnum is LUDICROUS!

    IWBA says Energy is a non-factor and the Temporary Stretch Cavity has no relevance, yet instead of explaining why they are inconsequential factors, more often than not, they simply ignore both.
    Last edited by 57K; 04-12-2019 at 02:28 PM.

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    To me what counts is shoot the round that you can shoot most accurately. If you can't hit the target you might as well throw rocks.

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    I've always carried the pistol I am most comfortable shooting.
    I've never paid attention to the caliber it uses.
    I have 4 that I pick at random, 2 are 9mm, 2 are .40 cal.
    Makes no difference to me.
    We've had 'caliber wars' arguments since before we had calibers.
    I really don't understand it at all.
    Carry what you are comfortable shooting.
    My manhood doesn't depend on how big my boolits are............
    I judge my manhood on how loud my motorcycle is.
    Remember:
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    on the internet arguing with strangers about politics.






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    I'm much more concerned about shot placement.
    Yissnakk, 57K, pegasus and 2 others like this.

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHorse View Post
    No, it's not. Energy transferred might become a useful metric at rifle velocities, but what makes handgun rounds effective is disrupting the circulatory system or the central nervous system.

    20 gauge birdshot has 1200 to 1300 foot pounds. Do you trust that energy deposit to incapacitate an attacker?


    When I was getting my physics degree, I calculated the energy of a running man compared to a variety of projectiles. Energy doesn't begin to compare until the projectile is a slug. But lots of people get stopped by handguns. It's not just because of energy. It's what you do with that energy. Use it to blow out one lung, and incapacitation is far from guaranteed. Use it to remove an atrium, and incapacitation is virtually guaranteed. An expanding round that dumps 400 foot pounds into the gun or shoulder musculature won't do nearly as much to incapacitate an attacker as a big, heavy handgun bullet that goes straight through the sternum and hits an important part of the circulatory system.

    There's a lot more to it than energy values. And hydrodynamic shock doesn't even happen at handgun velocities.
    Thank you!! This fact does not get enough attention! Everyone thinks hydrostatic shock is what stops a target; out of a handgun - nah but out of a rifle - well, yeah.

    Shoot an empty milk jug and you get a bullet hole. Fill that jug with water and cap it off and it’ll explode when hit by any bullet.
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    Now back to the topic at hand...CALIBER WAAAAARS!!!


    Concealed carry 3" .460 S&W. No concerns about over penetration...'cause it will. The temp stretch cavity is so frightening that the surrounding tissue just gives up and lets it have its way (300 gn bullet moving at ~2000fps WILL cause hydrostatic as well as shell shock). Even if you miss, the repercussion and subsequent hearing loss will disable nearly any attacker...and quite likely the shooter.

    also...mine is better than yours, in any case!




    (sorry, just a little Friday afternoon fun)
    Last edited by Yissnakk; 04-12-2019 at 04:35 PM. Reason: hyperbole for comic effect
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  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rickenbacher39 View Post
    I've always carried the pistol I am most comfortable shooting.
    I've never paid attention to the caliber it uses.
    I have 4 that I pick at random, 2 are 9mm, 2 are .40 cal.
    Makes no difference to me.
    We've had 'caliber wars' arguments since before we had calibers.
    I really don't understand it at all.
    Carry what you are comfortable shooting.
    My manhood doesn't depend on how big my boolits are............
    I judge my manhood on how loud my motorcycle is.
    Well, of COURSE you do.
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