Why Caliber Wars Do Not Matter! - Page 2
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Thread: Why Caliber Wars Do Not Matter!

  1. #11
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    If I wanted to, I could link to posts that are years old in which I explain exactly what they say in the video; ballistic gel is used because it gives consistent response, so data doesn't get skewed because the .45 happened to get shot at a flabby fatso, and the .38 happened to get shot at the powerlifter. It's a calibrated medium that gives consistent results, so engineers and researchers in different locations can make valid comparisons. And over the years, gel performance has been correlated to performance in human targets. I get it. But lots of people put too much faith in it.

    Comparing .22 on game to defensive rounds on humans is questionable, IMHO.

    A spinal cord or brain stem absolutely won't care what round severs it, I can agree with you there. But if you want good penetration to reach those targets or a vital circulatory structure, and you want your aim to stay true and have the best possible permanent wound cavity, you want to either start with a large diameter bullet, or have something that reliably mushrooms into a large diameter. If bone has ruined your carefully designed hollowpoint's shape, it's not going to mushroom into a pretty flower the way it does in gel. Gel has it's uses, but it's not the be-all, end-all. Neither are studies of actual shootings, because they inevitably come down to a question of how the researcher edits the data. Do you include the hits that hurt, but don't get near vital organs, and still cause an attacker to change their plans? What about multiple hits, how do you analyze those?

    Ultimately, you learn about how handgun bullets wound, look at the available data from shootings and gel - both with a grain of salt - and you plunk down your cash. I plunk it down on rounds with the best possible momentum. I prefer to stay above 150 grains, because until you're comfortably above 1250 fps, bigger bullets seem to do the job better. Momentum gets the job done. Energy isn't useless, but I trust momentum more.
    AZM66, jtg452 and Yissnakk like this.
    "It is wonderful, in the event of a street fight, how few bullets seem to hit the men they are aimed at." Ranch Life and the Hunting Trail, Theodore Roosevelt, 1888

  2. #12
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    I guess I watched the video with an open mind. I find out when I go and talk to experts, they should talk and I should listen. They got here some how.

    Never said the 22lr was on par with typical self defense calibers. Just using it as an illustration to show how even a standard velocity, 40gr, soft lead roundnose bullet can defeat a heavy bone and keep moving into the target.

    Where is the 1250fps threshold data at? Never heard of that one. Especially with bullets since 1990. Even the lowly 38 Soecial has great performances, predicted by gelatin no less, in stoppages on human targets and the 135gr bullet is way lower than 1000fps. Nor even in the cast bullet world for hunting, where size really does matter.

    If you don’t take real world shootings nor the tests that help the industry’s standards, you must have more knowledge and data than the FBI and other agencies. But we all choose what we want in the end.

    Lefty
    Last edited by Lefty_Red; 04-12-2019 at 06:29 AM.
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    I’ll be needing that for squirrels and such........

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    Quote Originally Posted by BangBang View Post
    Thank you Lefty, I appreciate you posting that video. Very interesting to hear what people that actually know what they're talkin about as far as calibers and velocities and muzzle energy think works best. I have been saying some of the same information that they went over on the video for many years and it's nice to hear that I was not completely off base. I used some of those theories with students particularly ladies who are wondering what they should buy for handgun. With modern ammunition technology in a modern firearm you do not need a large caliber to protect yourself.

    I am pretty sure this video will trigger a reaction from some of our armchair ammunition experts. I'm sure many of us have all heard the stories about how it has to be a 45 or 357 because that's the only thing you can count on to stop a bad guy. This theory has been proven to not hold water many many times over the years but I guess some people just are set in their ways.

    Don
    Ah, "trigger", nice pun!

    It did trigger a reaction from me, however. I realized I don't even have an armchair, so I guess I can't be an ammunition expert!
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    Well, that settles that.
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  6. #15
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    Again, I'll try to make my opinion even clearer...

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHorse View Post
    Ultimately, you learn about how handgun bullets wound, look at the available data from shootings and gel - both with a grain of salt - and you plunk down your cash.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty_Red View Post
    If you don’t take real world shootings nor the tests that help the industry’s standards, you must have more knowledge and data than the FBI and other agencies. But we all choose what we want in the end.
    Do you see the problem with your statement? I explicitly said to look at available data from shootings and gel...

    And while the FBI unquestionably has more data and knowledge, I don't have a corrupt lawyer to answer to, and I don't have to pander to affirmative action/EO requirements that force me away from better calibers, so I can make better use of the data and knowledge I do have. And the FBI has to be ready to do a lot of things I don't. Their windshield tests, for example, are completely irrelevant to me. An armed citizen doesn't need to do that.
    jtg452 and Lefty_Red like this.
    "It is wonderful, in the event of a street fight, how few bullets seem to hit the men they are aimed at." Ranch Life and the Hunting Trail, Theodore Roosevelt, 1888

  7. #16
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    This ballistic gel discussion is exactly why I love Paul Harrell and his Meat target! That's a much better gauge for real world performance than a homogeneous medium and optimal conditions.

    Last edited by Yissnakk; 04-12-2019 at 09:44 AM. Reason: added PH Vid
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    Well, I like 9x19. It's a good round in a small package, great for high cap guns, and it can push over 400 ft lbs. I'm not so paranoid that I have to tote a desert eagle in .50AE yet.
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  9. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHorse View Post
    Again, I'll try to make my opinion even clearer...





    Do you see the problem with your statement? I explicitly said to look at available data from shootings and gel...

    And while the FBI unquestionably has more data and knowledge, I don't have a corrupt lawyer to answer to, and I don't have to pander to affirmative action/EO requirements that force me away from better calibers, so I can make better use of the data and knowledge I do have. And the FBI has to be ready to do a lot of things I don't. Their windshield tests, for example, are completely irrelevant to me. An armed citizen doesn't need to do that.

    I might be be missing something, and then if I did I’m miss quoting you. But just sounds like you are trying to discredit the FBI cause it’s finding doesn’t work for you by throwing out some policies or requirements you don’t agree with. Nor do I believe that the government is willing to choose an ineffective bullet caliber and design for its agents. I know the FBI has some issues and isn’t perfect, but I’m not so far down the conspiracy wormhole that it’s putting it’s agents in danger due to poor equipment so a small frame transgender Hindu can be an agent. Last I heard, the FBI contract for duty ammo is HUGE and all the major manufacturers are bidding for it. Funny, it was Hornady that got it, not Federal. But in the end , it’s just our opinion on the observance of the data supplied.

    Be safe,
    Lefty
    Last edited by Lefty_Red; 04-12-2019 at 11:41 AM.
    I’ll be needing that for squirrels and such........

  10. #19
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    I don’t think the video is a hard push for medium sized calibers as much as a statement of:
    1) all pistol caliber work the same
    2) pistol calibers are not rifle calibers nor act like them
    3) it’s the bullet design not velocity that makes it work
    4) bullet placement is king
    5) penetration is queen
    6) the pistol has to work for the bullets to work
    7) velocity doesn’t matter, only expansion and penetration
    velocity doesn’t matter, it may make the bullet expand too soon and limit penetration
    9) the body is very elastic and can/will soak up the “energy dump” from the bullet too well and limits the bullets effectiveness.
    10) so it’s expansion and penetration that matters, cause velocity doesn’t

    So if a 9mm works like a 45ACP (disclosure: I love the caliber and my go to/duty caliber for years) good for the 9mm carrier. But if you can’t shoot the 45ACP, then you might want to look elsewhere. And it’s OK, you don’t have to check in your mancard.

    i can put three in target so much quicker, and more accurate with a 9mm than any larger caliber. Especially when firing one handed, and using the smaller sized weapons that are normally carried for self defense. Hell I carry a 380 more than anything now I pocket carry for the summer. Although the Sig P365 is OK to carry in the pocket, it’s still 5 ounces heavier than my G42 and makes a difference to me. And I believe this to be universal. The smaller the caliber the less the recoil and easier to shoot. For me, that means less misses. And that is safer for everyone.

    I like Paul Harrel’s Videos, I always fast forward to the Meat Target. But I do think it’s flawed, and the bullets would be shallower in a living organic body. Mostly due to the elasticity of real tissue and the denser environment. Maybe put the Meat Target in a gelatin block! That would be cool! But would be a chore to get the meat out for his dogs! LOL. But a still good fun and I can learn from them.

    And i I want a bullet as good, even better better than, what the cops carry. Shooting through barriers may come to pass for me. A loved one forced into a car, I want to be able to take a shot at the driver if I can. And I want that bullet to work. Hiding under a desk when there is an active shooter and I need to shoot through cheap IKEA furniture or drywall, I want that bullet to be bonded and barrier blind so I don’t have to show myself to the shooter. Might even need to shoot through the arm and into the body of the bad guy that has his hands on my throat or the throat of a loved one. I might not be able to walk around until I get a cleaner shot. Why? Because those are possible situations we may face. And I don’t want to wait around for the cops to show up with “batter ammo”. Reason I carry, I’m taking responsibility for my know safety. So getting the best information from the largest database is important to me. I am not one to blow off ideas that are different than my own, I don’t think everyone else is corrupted if they don’t agree to me. I don’t think the government is willing to get agents and LEOs improperly equipped or killed because it doesn’t agree with my choices. I’m simple, I take the best choices fro what is offered.

    Lefty
    I’ll be needing that for squirrels and such........

  11. #20
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    There was a time when I had to read through a lot of test reports as part of my job. There are lies, damn lies and statistics, or as I used to tell my guys, you can have a degree of certainty of 98% and still be 100% wrong. The assumptions are where most of the real issues lie. But at the end of the day, ballistic testing results can only say that bullet A performs better in the test medium than bullet B. For some that may be enough, but it is definitely not the be all, end all.

    Gel is a test medium, it may, or may not correlate to actual "field" data. As a test medium its job is to provide a consistent medium with which to compare ballistics performance on an apples to apples comparison. It is hoped that the test medium compares favorably to field data, but the job of gel is for testing, not direct comparisons with field data. Gel is meant to be consistent, field data is anything but consistent. When the Federal guys say it looks like their gel data correlates to field data, that is a hope, not a certainty.

    When I watch Forged in Fire I am always impressed with the dummy they use for knife testing, as it is a combination of ballistic gel, artificial bone and fluids, very much like a body. I would like to see how defensive ammunition would perform on those dummies, but it would never be consistent enough for test comparisons.
    jtg452 and G8R8U2 like this.
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