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  1. #21
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    This is the sort of case that you can tell a lot about a person by how they interpret it. Can a case be made that this was justified use of force, sure, the guy refused commands and may have reached for his weapon. But if that's your call on this case, that it was justified and all is right with the world, then you're likely trying to justify bad police killings due to some other motive, political, racial, whatever. As others have said, this situation was set up where this man had no chance to survive. It was bad tactics/decision making by the police that led to this, at the least, negligent manslaughter. We don't know this mans situation, and neither did the police, was this guy on drugs, or was he having a medical emergency? Even if he was just asleep from being tired there is NO WAY any human being could comprehend and comply with commands the instant they regain consciousness, and that's made even worse if he was passed out from drugs, alcohol, or a medical emergency. One cannot just look at the two seconds that a shooting occurred and make their decision if it was justified on that alone, the totality of the circumstances matter. Just like the Tamir Rice killing (and I say killing because they straight up murdered that child), one can, and many do, justify that shoot by saying the police thought he had a gun and he didn't follow commands and was shot, well who has the chance to follow commands when the police car rolls up two feet from you and the officer fires before his cruiser door is even fully open?! Those officers set up that situation (probably not intentionally but certainly negligently) by pulling right up on him and FORCING a deadly threat encounter, if the officers had pulled up a distance away and hailed the kid over a bullhorn or the cars loudspeakers or even taken five seconds to observe him they would have discovered it was a child playing in the park like any other kid. As a civilian CCW even in states where you don't have a duty to retreat you can be found negligent if the totality of the circumstances show that YOU created the situation. For example if there's a road rage situation where even if the other person is the aggressor by cutting you off or brake checking you or some such bull if you lay on the horn or follow that person and that decision leads to a physical confrontation where you have to defend yourself with your firearm, guess what, you're going to jail because you aggravated the situation. The same should apply to the police, all too often (and I'm talking about cases where the cops actually did wrong, not all cases where they are accused, there is a difference and they are rare but not rare enough and pretending they don't occur is just as bad as saying all cops are bad) the police are let off the hook because in those final 2 seconds it was justified and the totality of the circumstances leading up to those two seconds are ignored.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urufu_Shinjiro View Post
    This is the sort of case that you can tell a lot about a person by how they interpret it. Can a case be made that this was justified use of force, sure, the guy refused commands and may have reached for his weapon. But if that's your call on this case, that it was justified and all is right with the world, then you're likely trying to justify bad police killings due to some other motive, political, racial, whatever. As others have said, this situation was set up where this man had no chance to survive. It was bad tactics/decision making by the police that led to this, at the least, negligent manslaughter. We don't know this mans situation, and neither did the police, was this guy on drugs, or was he having a medical emergency? Even if he was just asleep from being tired there is NO WAY any human being could comprehend and comply with commands the instant they regain consciousness, and that's made even worse if he was passed out from drugs, alcohol, or a medical emergency. One cannot just look at the two seconds that a shooting occurred and make their decision if it was justified on that alone, the totality of the circumstances matter. Just like the Tamir Rice killing (and I say killing because they straight up murdered that child), one can, and many do, justify that shoot by saying the police thought he had a gun and he didn't follow commands and was shot, well who has the chance to follow commands when the police car rolls up two feet from you and the officer fires before his cruiser door is even fully open?! Those officers set up that situation (probably not intentionally but certainly negligently) by pulling right up on him and FORCING a deadly threat encounter, if the officers had pulled up a distance away and hailed the kid over a bullhorn or the cars loudspeakers or even taken five seconds to observe him they would have discovered it was a child playing in the park like any other kid. As a civilian CCW even in states where you don't have a duty to retreat you can be found negligent if the totality of the circumstances show that YOU created the situation. For example if there's a road rage situation where even if the other person is the aggressor by cutting you off or brake checking you or some such bull if you lay on the horn or follow that person and that decision leads to a physical confrontation where you have to defend yourself with your firearm, guess what, you're going to jail because you aggravated the situation. The same should apply to the police, all too often (and I'm talking about cases where the cops actually did wrong, not all cases where they are accused, there is a difference and they are rare but not rare enough and pretending they don't occur is just as bad as saying all cops are bad) the police are let off the hook because in those final 2 seconds it was justified and the totality of the circumstances leading up to those two seconds are ignored.
    "But if that's your call on this case, that it was justified and all is right with the world, then you're likely trying to justify bad police killings due to some other motive, political, racial, whatever." Sorry, I just can't let that one go. Because I call a set of circumstances a justifiable use of deadly force, I'm likely to justify bad police killings because of politics or race? Yeah, right. I do not like government. The good is rarely worth all the bad. I have no use for government agents (read police, bureaucrats) who abuse the power that we grant them. I can't ever imagine justifying a bad police killing. However, I don't hate the police so much that I would criticize the use of deadly force in justified circumstances. Neither do I hate sleeping Taco Bell customers. I have no idea what race, political bent, nor "whatever" of the cops or the customer. I'm siding with common sense and law and order. I would give you the same "pass" if you used deadly force to protect yourself against someone who was going for a gun when met with lawful authority.

    Again, I don't know what happened, only what I read here. My only bias is against the threat that was presented.

    Here's a hypothetical for you. Let's say you're in your home and happen upon a sleeping burglar with a gun in his lap. When you wake him up he goes for his gun. Are you justified in using deadly force against him? I know, some may claim that the cops weren't at home. That is the big mistake. The cops were legally where they were, performing a legal function, with lawful authority--just like you in your home. If a cop walks up behind someone and puts a bullet in his head, it would be a bad shooting and so would it be if you did that in your home (in most jurisdictions, absent other circumstances).
    Yissnakk and Smokewagon like this.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urufu_Shinjiro View Post
    This is the sort of case that you can tell a lot about a person by how they interpret it. Can a case be made that this was justified use of force, sure, the guy refused commands and may have reached for his weapon. But if that's your call on this case, that it was justified and all is right with the world, then you're likely trying to justify bad police killings due to some other motive, political, racial, whatever. As others have said, this situation was set up where this man had no chance to survive. It was bad tactics/decision making by the police that led to this, at the least, negligent manslaughter. We don't know this mans situation, and neither did the police, was this guy on drugs, or was he having a medical emergency? Even if he was just asleep from being tired there is NO WAY any human being could comprehend and comply with commands the instant they regain consciousness, and that's made even worse if he was passed out from drugs, alcohol, or a medical emergency. One cannot just look at the two seconds that a shooting occurred and make their decision if it was justified on that alone, the totality of the circumstances matter. Just like the Tamir Rice killing (and I say killing because they straight up murdered that child), one can, and many do, justify that shoot by saying the police thought he had a gun and he didn't follow commands and was shot, well who has the chance to follow commands when the police car rolls up two feet from you and the officer fires before his cruiser door is even fully open?! Those officers set up that situation (probably not intentionally but certainly negligently) by pulling right up on him and FORCING a deadly threat encounter, if the officers had pulled up a distance away and hailed the kid over a bullhorn or the cars loudspeakers or even taken five seconds to observe him they would have discovered it was a child playing in the park like any other kid. As a civilian CCW even in states where you don't have a duty to retreat you can be found negligent if the totality of the circumstances show that YOU created the situation. For example if there's a road rage situation where even if the other person is the aggressor by cutting you off or brake checking you or some such bull if you lay on the horn or follow that person and that decision leads to a physical confrontation where you have to defend yourself with your firearm, guess what, you're going to jail because you aggravated the situation. The same should apply to the police, all too often (and I'm talking about cases where the cops actually did wrong, not all cases where they are accused, there is a difference and they are rare but not rare enough and pretending they don't occur is just as bad as saying all cops are bad) the police are let off the hook because in those final 2 seconds it was justified and the totality of the circumstances leading up to those two seconds are ignored.
    Reading your post made me remember a time I had to respond (this is going back a few decades, I was a security officer at the time at a major plant that took up a whole lot of space and roads) to an unresponsive guy in his car. Surprised I didn't think of it earlier, but your comment about the possibility of it being a medical emergency brought the memory up out of the depths. Turns out the guy had a heart attack behind the wheel and with no foot on the gas it just came to a stop eventually in the middle of a road, in the middle of the night. He didn't have a gun beside him, but I know of a lot of people that drive and do. It's not always comfortable to carry concealed while driving, so many people take them out and put them beside them (depending on the local laws) while driving. The point here is, you are correct, there is just no way to determine what caused this man to go unconscious while behind the wheel of a car. We can speculate of course, just like the police did, but that's all it is until proven correct.
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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urufu_Shinjiro View Post
    ..............................Even if he was just asleep from being tired there is NO WAY any human being could comprehend and comply with commands the instant they regain consciousness..................................... .................
    Military people do it every day, have for thousands of years and likely will for thousands more.
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  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kschilk View Post
    Military people do it every day, have for thousands of years and likely will for thousands more.
    The first couple weeks of basic when the DI's come a calling in the wee hours, it looks far more like a Chinese fire drill than anything that even remotely resembles a successful game of Simon Says. And those guys generally aren't drunk or otherwise mentally impaired with some foreign substance running through them. Generally...
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  7. #26
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    Another aspiring rapper.....gone.

    Soon there will be none.

  8. #27
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    well not being there all I can say from what i hear, read is.
    why would you not call the swat team out for this?
    let them bring in the armored cars and body armor, then get out the sirens/ loud speaker and wake the guy up.
    you have a margin of safety built in that way?
    but now let me also mention having been in the situation of where people that are not famialir with what is actually going on or what is the best means of handling a situation are very often wrong, and most times see things from what they think is wrong or right.
    like the person at apartment fire gives you hell (or tries to) because their apartment wasn't on fire but you went in and pulled all the ceiling down and used hose lines in there, they raise hell, get mad, talk to the news , and then you say well yea but see we needed to do that to cut off the fire to prevent the other 6 apartments on the other side from burning.
    my point is you need to know the true story before making jusdgements.
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  9. #28
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    With only a few seconds of one partially blocked body cam (there were several present) I say no comment yet...
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  10. #29
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    There's a video on Youtube from a guy calling himself "Donut Operator" with multiple body-cams (look it up - probably violates the rules to link it here). It really doesn't help that much except to allow the viewer to see that they were on the scene for way longer than it should take from law enforcement professionals to come up with a better plan that surrounding the vehicle with guns trained on the sleeping guy, then to all start shouting all at once and firing within 1 second of beginning to shout.

    The youtube guy does attempt to make "excuses" for the officers that they could have reasonably felt that lethal force was necessary, but for all the time that they were on the scene, very little (none really until the very end) effort was made to actually wake the guy, and they spend a lot of time sort of soft-shoeing it around the car, very quietly checking to see if the door was locked, speaking in low voices, calling backup, and so on, but not once did they attempt to honk a horn, use a megaphone/onboard loudspeakers or even tap on the window. I didn't even hear that they ran the plates to see who that car may have belonged to (might have been done but they didn't do it). They spent the entire time deciding that, for lack of a better description, should he wake up he'll likely behave like a rabid animal and start shooting - which is how they behaved, with the notable exception of even attempting to move the vehicle, which appears to have been in drive the whole time, since it starts to roll away after they shoot the guy a lot...

    I am in no way anti-cop, but I am also in no way anti-due process. I don't think that cops should have to wait around to be shot at before returning fire but I think that if they take the job in the first place that they have accepted that some risks are involved. Occasionally deescalation is in order before escalation...once again, I wasn't there and even with the extra bodycam footage, there's still not much to go on as far as the actual end of the entire thing goes but there is ample evidence that prior to that point that there was plenty of time to come up with a different plan.

    And as some have stated earlier, what if the guy had a medical issue? How's that going to play out? Not once was there any attempt to determine his condition other than "not responding" - until he was full of holes.
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  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaBravoKS View Post
    "But if that's your call on this case, that it was justified and all is right with the world, then you're likely trying to justify bad police killings due to some other motive, political, racial, whatever." Sorry, I just can't let that one go. Because I call a set of circumstances a justifiable use of deadly force, I'm likely to justify bad police killings because of politics or race? Yeah, right. I do not like government. The good is rarely worth all the bad. I have no use for government agents (read police, bureaucrats) who abuse the power that we grant them. I can't ever imagine justifying a bad police killing. However, I don't hate the police so much that I would criticize the use of deadly force in justified circumstances. Neither do I hate sleeping Taco Bell customers. I have no idea what race, political bent, nor "whatever" of the cops or the customer. I'm siding with common sense and law and order. I would give you the same "pass" if you used deadly force to protect yourself against someone who was going for a gun when met with lawful authority.

    Again, I don't know what happened, only what I read here. My only bias is against the threat that was presented.

    Here's a hypothetical for you. Let's say you're in your home and happen upon a sleeping burglar with a gun in his lap. When you wake him up he goes for his gun. Are you justified in using deadly force against him? I know, some may claim that the cops weren't at home. That is the big mistake. The cops were legally where they were, performing a legal function, with lawful authority--just like you in your home. If a cop walks up behind someone and puts a bullet in his head, it would be a bad shooting and so would it be if you did that in your home (in most jurisdictions, absent other circumstances).
    Again, it's about the totality of circumstances, the bad decision making led to a no win situation. I'm not even sure what you're trying to say here, no where did I say anything along the lines of all cops are bad etc...

    As for your hypothetical, it bears no relation to the incident in question.

 

 
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