Analogy about the possible effectiveness of CC in a mass shooting situation - Page 3
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Thread: Analogy about the possible effectiveness of CC in a mass shooting situation

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by .452dia View Post
    I think that would depend on the ability of the concealed carrier. If you shoot at someone hellbent on killing a lot of people you can bet they will divert their attention to you if you miss. You may well be outgunned so make your shots count or try to get away and use your weapon in a last resort scenario.
    In addition to diverting their attention, there have been at least a couple of mass shooting situations that I've read about where the mere fact someone was shooting at them caused the active shooter to attempt to flee or commit suicide. Mass shooters tend to prefer compliant victims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Czechbikr View Post
    In addition to the likelihood of inflicting collateral damage to bystanders.
    The possibility of an innocent person accidentally shot is almost a mantra among the anti gunners or anti civilian CCW. It's like they are more concerned about the chance some one might get it accidentally than stopping someone who is trying to murder dozens intentionally. Although there's always the possibility of that happening, I'm not aware of any mass shooting where an innocent bystander was hit by a lawful concealed carrier at this time. I'm sure it might happen in the future but in all the mass shootings I've read accounts of, most of the other people present don't just stand there like statues. Most people are either fleeing or taking cover. Even if the off chance occurs where an innocent person is hit somewhere on their body, it doesn't automatically mean death, unlike a mass shooter who wounds a bunch of people, then goes up to them and finishes them off. How many mass shootings have we read about where the killer shot a particular victim several times? If I was in an area where a mass shooting was going on and I was unarmed I sure hope if someone is armed they would try to interfere with the mass murderer, even if it meant risking me getting a hit. I might survive one hit better than seven, and the sooner the killer is stopped the sooner EMS can go in.

    The one exception might be the idiot who said after the Dylan Roof mass shooting that if he'd been armed, he would've shot more people accidentally than Roof did intentionally. I guess as Clint said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

    Quote Originally Posted by Peacemakr40 View Post
    In a church or other mass shooting scenario, I fall in the Noblesse Oblige camp. Those who have the power to do something must because of those who cannot. I also believe that if you have CC permitted in areas, you're not going to be the only person carrying concealed. Depending on the area, you could have upwards of 5 people carrying out of a group of 50.
    In my state the numbers wouldn't be that high unfortunitely. I wish I had a dollar for every CC I've heard say, "Oh I got a license but I only carry if I think I need to."

    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaBravoKS View Post
    Interesting that this story happened more than 70 years ago. It sounds like someone in today's world who is wanting to "ensure" something will work. The only things that we can "ensure" are that you will die, and you will owe taxes. Things fail, people fail. I was never a scout, but one can always try his best to "be prepared".
    I agree. Besides, how can you ensure someone is going to be safe in a war zone anyway? During the time he was there he came close a few times to not making it back home. Many of the other crews didn't make it back. I have to admit though I would be very leery of being a passenger on board a plane and being told you might have to jump out of it, particularly if you've never jumped before. Even back then the common thing was if the plane had trouble the passengers stayed with the plane, and the pilot tried to do an emergency landing. This was just not possible in the area where they were flying unless they were very close to one of the airstrips anyway.
    One of the non comm crewmen with a NY accent told the guy, "What're you worried about? Even if you survive the jump, some of the locals down there are headhunters."

    Quote Originally Posted by Divebum View Post
    I think it can be, on a small scale. There are a number of dangers. 1) When the cops get there, they are on an adrenaline rush and will be hard pressed to tell the good guys from the bad guys (if the bad have not already suicided). 2) The vast majority of CHL holders have their card, a gun and that's all - very little or no SD training. Standing and shooting at a bullseye target is not combat training. 3) It is not the charter of a CHL holder to be protector of anyone or anything not directly associated with him/her - family, dependents, self, home, car. For example (not a terrorist situation) if I walk into a bank armed and a robbery takes place, unless I or my family is directly threatened, I'll be a good witness. 4) Even with very good situational awareness, it would be hard or impossible to spot all of the perpetrators should there be multiple or even spot the only one for sure.

    On the other hand, if it's a sure thing and one can take a good from-cover shot, (to the head since the bad guy could be wearing body armor) it could serve to mitigate a mass shooting. But I am of the opinion that a CHL holder would not really make a tremendous difference.
    Tremendous difference, probably not. In a situation where you have almost no chance at all versus a small chance, I'll take the slim chance every time.

    on pg 8 of the report from the FBI on active shooting situations. (underling is mine)

    Armed and unarmed citizens engaged the shooter in 10 incidents. They safely and successfully ended the shootings in eight of those incidents. Their selfless actions likely saved many lives.
    The enhanced threat posed by active shooters and the swiftness with which active shooter incidents unfold support the importance of preparation by law enforcement officers and citizens alike.
    https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/...-2017.pdf/view
    CaptainMorgan likes this.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divebum View Post
    ...I am of the opinion that a CHL holder would not really make a tremendous difference.
    The difference to every person who doesn't get shot would be tremendous...
    pegasus, jtg452 and CaptainMorgan like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BC605 View Post
    The difference to every person who doesn't get shot would be tremendous...
    Assuming the CHL holder was successful - and I still maintain that's a very big "if."
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    I love my country, but I fear my government.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Divebum View Post
    Assuming the CHL holder was successful - and I still maintain that's a very big "if."
    If past performance is any indication of future results, civilians who resist mass shooters have an 80% success rate in the US. The percentage is actually higher if you add Israeli stat's into it. Granted, some of those people didn't have a gun, but if you're going to resist a mass shooter and you have a choice would you rather have a gun or not have one?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divebum View Post
    Assuming the CHL holder was successful - and I still maintain that's a very big "if."
    Dude, get a clue. You don't even have to "succeed" at taking the shooter out to save lives. If you even distract the active shooter long enough to allow one person to escape who might otherwise have been shot, you made a HUGE difference to that person and to the overall outcome. Surely you can see and comprehend that?
    If not, go join Bloomburg's groups - your mind and beliefs are more aligned with theirs.

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    The example I remember is from years back. There was a mass shooting in a California McDonald's. At the time, California did not allow carry in restaurants. Twenty some people were killed. In the restaurant at the time was a woman licensed to carry. Her gun was in the car. She watched her mother die.

    The same week, three gunmen armed with AK-47s stormed a cafe in Tel Aviv. Three civilians died before the gunmen were cut down by a hail of gunfire from citizens eating in the cafe.
    I suppose Democrats would consider that proof that civilian carry does not work. After all, six people died.

    EDIT: It has been pointed out to me that my memory may be faulty in detail. The U.S. shooting I am thinking of may have been in Texas rather than California. I do not believe that alters anything significant. The comparison between carry and non-carry is still valid.
    Last edited by MadKaw; 11-06-2018 at 12:23 PM.
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  8. #27
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    I have had a nightmare about CC a few times, and it fits this thread. In my nightmare, I am at church. I have a weapon which I am very good with. A small group of people carrying guns come running up the aisle to the podium and everybody is panicking but staying still like they think it’s a theatrical event or something. Then they execute the preacher and turn to the congregation, surround themselves with a human shield. What do you do when these guys keep firing and you can’t get a shot because you might hit your friend? It’s terrible. The nightmare was so real and so intense I let my license lapse after I moved. The nightmare has subsided since I no longer carry concealed.

    The only answer i have ever ever came up with is to shoot the best shot you’ve got. If it’s a leg shot then take it. If it’s a crotch shot then take it. Inflict damage to the bad guy however you can, as quickly as you can. If nothing else their natural instinct will be to engage you or to run away. If they engage you then you have the jump on them, you are on target, and they aren’t. Walk your shots to where you want them, and don’t take your eyes off the target. If they flee then pursue to the boundary where security can be achieved.

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC605 View Post
    Dude, get a clue. You don't even have to "succeed" at taking the shooter out to save lives. If you even distract the active shooter long enough to allow one person to escape who might otherwise have been shot, you made a HUGE difference to that person and to the overall outcome. Surely you can see and comprehend that?
    If not, go join Bloomburg's groups - your mind and beliefs are more aligned with theirs.
    Perhaps another "clue" here would be to read the forum guidelines. You do not have to make it personal to make your point.
    “…democratic socialism, the great utopia of the last few generations, is not only unachievable but that to strive for it produces something utterly different – the very destruction of freedom itself. As has been aptly said: ‘What has always made the state a hell on earth has been precisely that man has tried to make it his heaven.'” F.A. Hayek

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC605 View Post
    Dude, get a clue. You don't even have to "succeed" at taking the shooter out to save lives. If you even distract the active shooter long enough to allow one person to escape who might otherwise have been shot, you made a HUGE difference to that person and to the overall outcome. Surely you can see and comprehend that?
    If not, go join Bloomburg's groups - your mind and beliefs are more aligned with theirs.
    I have a clue. I've been shot at and shot back. That's my clue. Here's yours: "One example is worth 10,000 expert opinions."
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    I love my country, but I fear my government.
    "The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.” Albert Einstein

  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadKaw View Post
    The example I remember is from years back. There was a mass shooting in a California McDonald's. At the time, California did not allow carry in restaurants. Twenty some people were killed. In the restaurant at the time was a woman licensed to carry. Her gun was in the car. She watched her mother die.

    The same week, three gunmen armed with AK-47s stormed a cafe in Tel Aviv. Three civilians died before the gunmen were cut down by a hail of gunfire from citizens eating in the cafe.
    I suppose Democrats would consider that proof that civilian carry does not work. After all, six people died.
    Two big differences here. 1) Citizens in Israel are encouraged - and in many cases required - to carry weapons. 2) Many are trained in the use of the weapons - combat trained. And you are correct. The fact that 6 people died would be a reason the left would cite it as proof that civilian carry doesn't work. Even in areas where carry is legal, the legal system will put the CHL holder through so much hell, even if it's a good shoot, that it would give a citizen pause. Look at what they do to cops when a cop uses his weapon to defend himself for someone else. Second guessing and the attitude that in the case of self defense, one is guilty until proven innocent, and then is still guilty is the norm.
    rice paddy daddy likes this.
    Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.
    I love my country, but I fear my government.
    "The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.” Albert Einstein

 

 
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