CCW force on force training related to a dog attack
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Thread: CCW force on force training related to a dog attack

  1. #1
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    CCW force on force training related to a dog attack

    Recently there was a sad story in the news, about a CHL holder who unintentionally killed a victim of a dog attack.

    https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/...ng-to-save-her

    Because of this, someone I know who has done force on force training in the past against two legged predators decided to try a different exercise. I had the opportunity to engage in a non lethal force on force exercise related to a dog attack. Specifically if someone else was being attacked by a dog, and you had to "shoot" the dog without shooting the innocent victim. A large stuffed animal was used as the "dog". Everybody got to use the same "gun" and practice with it on a static target at 4 yards. (semi auto copy of an M9) Everybody did okay with the static target. I and a couple of other people got to be the victim as well as a defender. The people playing the victim were supposed to move around as much as possible, pretending like they were thrashing around, trying to get the "dog" off of them. It was interesting to see the participants who were standing far back, trying to carefully aim a shot at the dog without hitting me. Most of those people completely missed me and the dog, or were afraid to shoot at all. The victims were hit a few times, the dog was hit a few times, but the hits might not have been effective on a real dog. (depends on the dog I guess) With those people there were a lot of complete misses. In real life where would those complete misses go? What I did, (and what a couple of other people who successfully hit the dog effectively without hitting the victim did) was basically get right up there to the dog and shoot point blank, almost contact distance. Not that you can't hit the moving dog/biting human from afar, but it's much more of a challenge doing it that way for most people.

    Someone else said that she was told in her CCW basic class to not get close to an attacker if you're not already close. I told her that was great advice if her attacker is a human that is a threat to you. A dog attacking a loved one or family member (sometimes not exactly the same thing ) isn't going to try to take your gun away from you or cut you with a knife in it's paw. The main risk to the gun owner is maybe the dog lets go of the victim and goes after the gun owner with its jaws. If that happens though, the gun owner at least has his/her gun
    out and ready to shoot.

    One of the people who stood back from the dog (maybe 3-4 yards?) and did great on the static target, couldn't get a good hit on the dog. He complained afterwards that the exercise was too challenging, because every time he got the sights lined up and tried to slowly pull the trigger, the target moved, because the person playing the victim was thrashing around with a stuffed animal on his arm. (exactly like what might happen in real life, unless perhaps the victim was dead or something) Is there a name for square range static target syndrome?

    Bottom line, it was a very educational exercise.

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    Amen to all of that! Like most all of you I try to practice simulating real life situations, drawing and firing etc. Working in animal rescue this is a topic of real concern for me but but I have never attempted to replicate the exercise you have described. A dog attack is a very violent and dangerous event and adding a weapon to the mix only makes it a lot more dangerous. The only thing I do is go over and over in my head how I should react. I have narrowed it down to two very important items. 1. Shoot only with the muzzle literally touching the dog. 2. Be extremely aware of where the bullets exit path would be and what it will hit next. The same rules apply if I am attacked but it gets more complicated then!

    There have been only two vicious attacks at our rescue in the 18 years I've been doing it. One indoors and one out. I was not present for either. One was resolved by two women foisting a large animal trap in the air and crashing it down on the dogs head. It worked, he ran off and was later shot by animal control. The other was indoors and was resolved with a mop handle beating. The dog fortunately ran into a kennel and was trapped. In either case the dog could have turn it's attention to the attackers but fortunately neither did. They often zone in on a single target and ignore everyone else. I should also add that I have issued a pepper spray canister with a belt clip to every employee but they never ever carry it.
    "I can't fix stupid but I can fix stupid's dog"

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    Oh I also wanted to add a comment on the article. I know it's not fair to judge without knowing all the facts but it seems to me the shooter in the article acting extremely irresponsibly. To shoot the woman several times...well I just don't know what the heck he was thinking.
    Denton and darbo like this.
    "I can't fix stupid but I can fix stupid's dog"

    Taurus PT111 G2, Taurus 709 Slim, Ruger Blackhawk .45LC/.45ACP, High Standard Double Nine .22/.22WMR, AR-15 .223/5.56 PSA, Herter's FN Mauser 30.06, Remington 572 Fieldmaster Pump .22, Savage 93R17F, Mossberg 715T, Raven P25


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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyC2639 View Post
    Oh I also wanted to add a comment on the article. I know it's not fair to judge without knowing all the facts but it seems to me the shooter in the article acting extremely irresponsibly. To shoot the woman several times...well I just don't know what the heck he was thinking.
    He wasn't. He panicked.

    She died, and he is trying to figure out how to live.

    Who the hell owns the dog?
    pegasus likes this.
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    A dog latched on to someone is getting a couple contact shots. Just make sure you do it so when the bullet passes through, you don't hit the victim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyC2639 View Post
    Amen to all of that! Like most all of you I try to practice simulating real life situations, drawing and firing etc. Working in animal rescue this is a topic of real concern for me but but I have never attempted to replicate the exercise you have described. A dog attack is a very violent and dangerous event and adding a weapon to the mix only makes it a lot more dangerous. The only thing I do is go over and over in my head how I should react. I have narrowed it down to two very important items. 1. Shoot only with the muzzle literally touching the dog. 2. Be extremely aware of where the bullets exit path would be and what it will hit next. The same rules apply if I am attacked but it gets more complicated then!

    There have been only two vicious attacks at our rescue in the 18 years I've been doing it. One indoors and one out. I was not present for either. One was resolved by two women foisting a large animal trap in the air and crashing it down on the dogs head. It worked, he ran off and was later shot by animal control. The other was indoors and was resolved with a mop handle beating. The dog fortunately ran into a kennel and was trapped. In either case the dog could have turn it's attention to the attackers but fortunately neither did. They often zone in on a single target and ignore everyone else. I should also add that I have issued a pepper spray canister with a belt clip to every employee but they never ever carry it.
    Quote Originally Posted by youngandfree View Post
    A dog latched on to someone is getting a couple contact shots. Just make sure you do it so when the bullet passes through, you don't hit the victim.
    The reason I underlined these parts of the quotes is I didn't mention in the OP that was a consideration also in the exercise. There were three people in the exercise besides the "shooter". There was the rangemaster/person in charge of the exercise, the fake victim with the fake dog, and someone who comes in from the side, bystander. Although one person successfully shot the dog in the head without hitting the victim, but the person in charge pointed out to the shooter afterwards that if it had been a real gun shot, and if it had passed through it's head (very likely) it would've hit me.
    Last edited by pegasus; 10-25-2017 at 06:46 PM.

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    My natural inclination is to close with the dog.
    I have already done this once although it was 35 years ago and was a 30-30 not a pistol. My inclination was to place the rifle against the head but the victims arms were in danger. Instead I placed the muzzle behind the shoulder and pulled the trigger. The animal ceased attempts to maul the victim but required a finishing shot to the head. I suspect I only nicked a lung with the first shot.
    Last edited by Tightwad; 11-03-2017 at 05:51 PM.
    FreeInAZ likes this.
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    Folks - killing a dog with a pistol that is in a rage and attacking a person or pet/livestock etc is no easy task. I have survived two dog attacks (one as a child and one as a armed adult and bear the scars to prove it.)

    Having grown up in Detroit I can tell you that there are packs of wild dogs that roam freely through out city neighborhoods. I'm talking the kind of dogs you'd expect to see in IRAQ or Afghanistan or some other hell hole.

    This is exactly why I almost always carry a fixed blade knife in addition to a pistol. The one time I need a knife, the second dog attack, I didn't have it. Dogs attack and fight in a whirlwind style often so getting a clean pistol shot is REALLY hard once they've began their attack. The knife is a contact weapon which allows you to inflict damage and open up space during the attacks without worrying about a pass through bullet killing someone you didn't intend to. Pistols are useful once the dog is isolated from its prey. It good to see trainings being developed around dog attacks. Because there seems to be a generation of nitwits out there that have bought four legged unguided fur missiles that are clueless on what it takes to raise a "good dog".
    ozzy likes this.

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    Ya if your gonna do that make sure it's gun muzzle on skin.
    FreeInAZ likes this.

 

 

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