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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC605 View Post


    True, BUT the hollow point will be lighter than a solid bullet. That's why I like the solid with the flat meplat.
    the old a ton of feathers is lighter than a ton of nails??
    I mean if its a 100 grain projectile it really doesn't matter if its flat point, round nose, hollow point!
    now the hollow point will normally be a longer projectile to make up the 100 grains but its still the same weight.
    I have 160 grain all copper hollow points that are longer than 230 grain FMJ projectiles and I mean a lot longer!
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by olfarhors View Post
    the old a ton of feathers is lighter than a ton of nails??
    I mean if its a 100 grain projectile it really doesn't matter if its flat point, round nose, hollow point!
    now the hollow point will normally be a longer projectile to make up the 100 grains but its still the same weight.
    I have 160 grain all copper hollow points that are longer than 230 grain FMJ projectiles and I mean a lot longer!
    DUH! No, that is not what I was saying at all. I'm not an idiot.

    The 380 is a short little case and a low pressure cartridge. The bullet can only be seated to a certain depth in the cartridge before the diminished internal case volume starts to raise the pressure above SAAMI spec. Obviously the bullet can also only protrude so from the case before the OAL starts to cause function and feeding issues.

    So there are very narrow limits on the external dimensions of the bullet, and when you compare two bullets of the same DIMENSIONS one solid and one hollow point, the hollow point will be lighter. The bullets for 380 loadings are already limited to pretty low weight by the dimension constraints, and you further reduce the weight by creating a big hollow cavity in them - a cavity that is unlikely to create much expansion at the velocities the 380 is capable of achieving. Most 380 HP ammo has a bullet in the 88gr-95gr weight range. The upper weight limit for the 380 is somewhere in the 115gr range. IMO it is best not to give up any of that already limited bullet weight for a hollow point which is likely not going to give you reliable expansion anyway.

    One of the issues with the low pressure 380 round is that if you keep the powder charge low enough to not exceed the pressure specs, the velocity is not only too low to create reliable expansion it is also so low that it limits penetration as well. In order to maximize penetration you want the heaviest bullet you can get. That means not giving up any weight for a useless hollow cavity in the front of the bullet.

    On top of that, in the event that they DO actually expand, that will further limit their penetration. The more a bullet expands the less it penetrates. That's simple physics. Since penetration with the lightweight 380 projectiles is already only marginal, giving up any of it through reduced weight and/or expansion is a lose-lose proposition.

    So all those things considered, I'll take the heaviest, solid, flat-point I can get for 380 acp loads. Ideally a bullet weight somewhere above 100gr. Hopefully that sufficiently clarifies what I was trying to say.
    Last edited by BC605; 03-24-2019 at 09:29 PM.

  3. #33
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    still don't understand where you get that a certain weight projectile is lighter or heavier than the same weight projectile of a different design??
    makes no sense?
    I would point out that 2 -3 different design or material projectiles can not be the same dimensions if they are the same caliber.!
    but I would point out that pressure and fps or powder amount is not so much the weight of the projectile or the length of a projectile as much as the type of powder that you use.
    now sure projectile weight, OAL , and powder amount play into pressure but different powders have both different pressure curves and burn times.
    performance of a expanding point projectile seems to be in the 380 determined by the projectile design and speed with which it is delievered as the 380 seems to be right on the edge of having enough performance to both expand and penetrate , so to fast doesn't always equate to the best s you lose penetration due to over expansion at the FPS the 380 can deliver.
    380 can be loaded from about 70 grains up to 124 if you can find loading info for it using the correct powder for that particular loading.
    never seen a projectile weight above that or below that.
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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by olfarhors View Post
    still don't understand where you get that a certain weight projectile is lighter or heavier than the same weight projectile of a different design??
    makes no sense?
    I would point out that 2 -3 different design or material projectiles can not be the same dimensions if they are the same caliber.!
    but I would point out that pressure and fps or powder amount is not so much the weight of the projectile or the length of a projectile as much as the type of powder that you use.
    now sure projectile weight, OAL , and powder amount play into pressure but different powders have both different pressure curves and burn times.
    performance of a expanding point projectile seems to be in the 380 determined by the projectile design and speed with which it is delievered as the 380 seems to be right on the edge of having enough performance to both expand and penetrate , so to fast doesn't always equate to the best s you lose penetration due to over expansion at the FPS the 380 can deliver.
    380 can be loaded from about 70 grains up to 124 if you can find loading info for it using the correct powder for that particular loading.
    never seen a projectile weight above that or below that.
    Weight of the projectile is one of many variables, but what we're really talking about here is sectional density of the bullet. Two projectiles of the same weight, diameter, and material, one with a hollow cavity and one solid, the hollow one will be have to be longer. With me so far?

    Now please read this part (I posted before) again then tell me what you don't understand
    "The 380 is a short little case and a low pressure cartridge. The bullet can only be seated to a certain depth in the cartridge before the diminished internal case volume starts to raise the pressure above SAAMI spec. Obviously the bullet can also only protrude so from the case before the OAL starts to cause function and feeding issues.

    So there are very narrow limits on the external dimensions of the bullet, and when you compare two bullets of the same DIMENSIONS one solid and one hollow point, the hollow point will be lighter. The bullets for 380 loadings are already limited to pretty low weights by the dimension constraints, and you further reduce the weight by creating a big hollow cavity in them."

    As you alluded to, pressure is dependent on 3 things. Powder quantity, powder burn rate, and the VOLUME in the case below the bullet. If you have a jacketed lead core 100gr solid flat-nosed bullet and a 100gr jacketed lead core hollow point bullet, the hollow point is going to have to be longer to weigh the same with a big hollow cavity in the nose. Follow the logic so far?

    A longer bullet of the same weight is going to have to be set deeper in the case - because the COAL is limited by the magazine and the chamber. Setting the bullet deeper into the case reduces case volume. Following me still?

    Regardless of the powder burn rate, if you reduce the volume in the case and use the same amount of powder, the pressure spike at or just after ignition (generally the point at which the HIGHEST pressure is attained) is going to be higher. So if the shorter solid core bullet is loaded to produce a pressure curve that doesn't exceed SAAMI max pressure then a load with the same amount of the same powder will produce pressure in excess of SAAMI spec in the smaller case volume when loaded with the longer (deeper seated) hollow cored bullet. Still with me?

    So the only way to resolve that problem is load a smaller amount of powder to keep the pressure SPIKE at or below SAAMI spec. Less powder = less energy - lower velocity, so that solution doesn't really work when the round barely has adequate velocity to achieve acceptable penetration to begin with.

    Alternatively you can use a slower powder to suppress the pressure spike, but then you end up with less of the power being burned while the bullet is still in the barrel, and more being burned as flash and bang out the end of the short barrel. Unfortunately that also limits velocity - which again, we already know is barely adequate to start with.You can play with the variables all you want, but there is no magic powder that will allow loading an equally heavy hollow projectile to the same speed as a solid one with the limited space available in the little 380 cartridge WITHOUT exceeding safe pressures.

    The only other possibility is to keep the DIMENSIONS of the bullet the same - but again, as I said earlier, that means the hollow point bullet has to be lighter assuming the same lead core and copper jacket (the heaviest and most effective combination). That means less penetration because of the physics principle of conservation of momentum.

    So to summarize; given the limited case volume, relatively low pressure limits for the 380 round, limitations on bullet weight due to materials, limitations on bullet dimensions, the short barrels of 380 pocket guns, and the nature of burning powder (regardless of formulation) there is no magic bullet, bullet material, or powder that will allow a hollow point bullet to have the same penetration as a solid point. Velocities can't be achieved to give reliable expansion from the 38 either - unless you go to a lower weight, faster bullet - and then you are again sacrificing penetration. What's more if you do use a light enough bullet moving fast enough to ensure expansion then you are pretty much guaranteed to reduce penetration to unacceptable levels.

    What it boils down to is that there are several variables you can change, but every variable you change has a negative impact on one performance aspect or another. It is PHYSICS. There is no magic.

    If you are satisfied with an 80gr HP bullet at 900 fps out of a 2" barrel that expands some of the time but only penetrates 12" then a hollow point is for you.

    If you are OK with ammo that exceeds SAAMI specs (like Buffalo Bore "+P" - which BTW there is NO SAAMI spec for 380+P) then you can shoot a 90gr HP at 1000 fps - just be aware that your gun isn't going to hold up to very many of those. Personally I wouldn't do that, but feel free.

    If you believe that a 95gr bullet at 850 fps that penetrates 16" is better, then a solid bullet is for you. Of course you also have the choice to use a Buffalo Bore 100gr "+P" at over 1000fps, if you feel like rolling the dice exceeding SAAMI specs. Personally I don't have that much faith in how a PT738 would hold up to that. Not to mention the recoil of a "+P" load in something as light as the PT738.

    The last alternative is my favorite. Load your own 100gr FP at around 800fps and get the maximm penetration possible for the 380 pocket gun.
    Last edited by BC605; 03-26-2019 at 12:22 AM.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC605 View Post
    Weight of the projectile is one of many variables, but what we're really talking about here is sectional density of the bullet. Two projectiles of the same weight, diameter, and material, one with a hollow cavity and one solid, the hollow one will be have to be longer. With me so far?

    .
    NO arguement at all, but thats NOT what you said originally--you said --- that a certain weight bullet would be lighter or heavier depending on point type--- as I pointed out it is basically impossible for the same weight projectile of the same material to be the same length if one is a hollow point, really if one is a flat point vs a round nose If the taper is the same.
    my point is that 100 grains is 100 grains regardless of the size--one is weight the other is well what ever you want it to be, length--taper--caliber.
    My disagreement was with you saying that a certain weight projectile would be lighter/heavier due to the type projectile it was.
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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by olfarhors View Post
    NO arguement at all, but thats NOT what you said originally--you said --- that a certain weight bullet would be lighter or heavier depending on point type--- as I pointed out it is basically impossible for the same weight projectile of the same material to be the same length if one is a hollow point, really if one is a flat point vs a round nose If the taper is the same.
    my point is that 100 grains is 100 grains regardless of the size--one is weight the other is well what ever you want it to be, length--taper--caliber.
    My disagreement was with you saying that a certain weight projectile would be lighter/heavier due to the type projectile it was.
    NO, that is the interpretation you put on what I said. What I actually said was
    ...the hollow point will be lighter than a solid bullet. That's why I like the solid with the flat meplat.
    Which was in direct response to the statement that a hollow point that plugs up is the equivalent of a flat meplat.
    My original statement assumes the reader understands that the two bullets being compared are the same physical SIZE. My bad for not implicitly stating that in the original response I guess.
    However, it seems that you are knowledgeable enough to understand exactly what I meant, including all the variables and constraints involved.
    NOBODY is stupid enough to say that a solid point will weigh less than a hollow point of the same weight. That amounts to saying they weigh the same but they don't weigh the same. It is obviously impossible when comparing two things of equal weight for one to be lighter than the other.
    Surely you don't really think I am that stupid? Or are you just playing semantic games? Or maybe picking nits?
    Last edited by BC605; 03-27-2019 at 10:13 PM.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC605 View Post


    True, BUT the hollow point will be lighter than a solid bullet. That's why I like the solid with the flat meplat.

    Ohh, Sorry I thought that you stated this?
    ahh kind of like Politicians-- yo know we do have video and recordings --right?---LOL-----
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    Quote Originally Posted by olfarhors View Post
    Ohh, Sorry I thought that you stated this?
    ahh kind of like Politicians-- yo know we do have video and recordings --right?---LOL-----
    Is English a second language for you? Do you find reading comprehension challenging?
    Or are you so wrapped up in your semantic games that you aren't even reading my responses?

    In my last post I quoted the EXACT same phrase that you just did - and I explained it.

    Then you quote that same phrase back to me and ask "Sorry I thought you stated THIS?".

    For the THIRD time, YES, I did state that - twice in fact - and the second time I explained what I meant, as well as what was implied, but wasn't explicitly stated.

    I even admitted that I had made assumptions - possibly erroneous assumptions - about the knowledge level of those reading it, and that I had implied things that probably should have been more explicitly stated - for the benefit of those with limited understanding. Is my sentence structure too complex? Is that what is confusing you?

    I'm done trying to explain things to you. Either you really aren't understanding or you're playing some kind of stupid game.
    Play stupid games win stupid prizes as they say.
    Last edited by BC605; 03-27-2019 at 10:33 PM.

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    LOL, does the improved accuracy of a hollow point make up for some of the assumptions you have been throwing around like they are fact?

    If you want to shoot a 100 grain JHP out of a .380 Auto, just go to a denser powder. If you are running Unique, then Universal Clays will deliver more powder and it excels at the heavier weight bullets in the .380 Auto. Achieving 1,000 fps out of a 738 is not that hard. Personally, that is about what I shoot for in my 738, 1,000 fps whether that is an 80 grain copper bullet, 90 grain XTP, or a 105 grain Golden Saber. For whatever reason experience has shown me that bullets traveling just below the speed of sound penetrate a little better than the same bullet traveling just over the speed of sound.
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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC605 View Post
    Is English a second language for you? Do you find reading comprehension challenging?
    Or are you so wrapped up in your semantic games that you aren't even reading my responses?

    .
    1) yes -I speak southern as a first language.
    2) I am public school educated so possibly?
    3) no I don't.
    so moving along here.
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