Riots break out in north London

[CNCSC]

Not really, There are just tighter controls on firearms in the UK. Currently as of the start of 2011 there are

2,840 registered firearm dealers
138,728 firearm certificates issued
574,946 shotgun certificates issued

This is well down compared to what the figures were pre 1997 when pistols and short firearms were legal

As a usual firearms certificat on issues usually has 6 slots allowing the purchase of 6 guns before aditional slots are required so that arround 832,368 section 1 firearms. However most shooters will have more than 6. Then the shotguns, there are probably millions of them as there is no restriction on how many you can own with a certificate.

My local gun club has 150 + members and there are about 4 or 5 clubs within 5 miles of were I live. For a country with strickt gun control measures there is still a high persentage of the population who are liscenced to own firearms.

That's great informaiton Cm1 - but aren't the current gun owners afraid to use them for self defense? I have read several stories where UK residents (victims) got a harsher sentence because they chose to defend themselves with a firearm.

[chrismetallica1]

Self defence in the UK is currently a bit of a grey area. The law states that resonable force can only be used if there is an imediate or unavoidable threat of bodily harm to you and your life. Defending ones home is also a grey area.

The current law states

"The Criminal Law Act 1967 provides that a person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large. It is up to the courts to decide what may be considered reasonable force."


In recent months the Justice Secretary and the government have tried to put some clarification to the matter and have advised they will clarify the law on self defence in forthcoming legislation. The key is all firearms and shotgun permits in the UK are issued for sporting use only.

This is the current Justice Secretary Ken Clarke stance on it. As he states if someone broke in and attacked you with a weapon you can defend yourself.

BBC News - Justice Secretary Ken Clarke to clarify self defence law

There have been many docummented cases of burglars being killed or injured and no charges raised against the home owner. The issue arriese in cases like the Farmer Tony Martin who in 1999 shot and killed a burglar and injured another. At the time this occured the burglar was fleeing and the firearm used was unliscenced. This resulted in him being convicted of murder and issued a life prison sentance. However after 3 years he was released

Tony Martin (farmer) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However the flip side is Kenneth Faulkner 2004. He was a 77 year old home owner and victim of multiple burglaries. he lived in an isolated farmhouse with no close police presence and became under attack so shot and injuerd a burglar with a legaly held shotgun. No charges were raised agains him and the judge who sentenced the injured burglar said he could not critizise in any way the actions of Kenneth Faulkner the home owner.

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Derbyshire | Shot burglar case sparks debate

Same with Gary Holmes who shot an burglar who had an Iorn bar. This case was intresting as it was an airgun that does not require a permit unlike a liscenced firearm or shotgun. The burglar when shot dialled 999. however after a brief spell in hospital was charged for the buglary and the home owner was commended for his actions in protecting his home and his wife and baby

Burglar dialled 999 when shot with air rifle after breaking into family home | Mail Online

My guess is that there will be further clarification when the Riots have finished as it has been on the news today that 3 shop owners have been killed attempting to defend there properties last night

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-14471405

[dbeardslee]

So England has around 700k licensed weapons, and a population of around 51 million. The U.S. has a population of 310,000,000, and basically a gun for every man woman or child in the country. See my point?

[chrismetallica1]

Sure do Its just like Isoroku Yamamoto Fleet Admiral and Commander-in-Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy during WW2 said

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass"

Im a firm beliver that an armed society is a polite society. Sure the US has had its fair share of Riots. However they were all handled a lot better than the current ones in the UK. All this waiting to let them calm down and just recording it for future presecution is not the best option in my opinion. They should have declared a curwef. Implemented restricted movments zones during daylight hours, Deployed armed response units ACP's and water cannon crowed control. People within restricted zones during curfew hours should be considerd threats and engaged on site. If a hard stance was taken on day one we wouldnt be still dealing with the situation now. You cant make an omlet if you dont crack some eggs

[marinemom]

Sure do Its just like Isoroku Yamamoto Fleet Admiral and Commander-in-Chief of the Imperial Japanese Navy during WW2 said

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass"

Im a firm beliver that an armed society is a polite society. Sure the US has had its fair share of Riots. However they were all handled a lot better than the current ones in the UK. All this waiting to let them calm down and just recording it for future presecution is not the best option in my opinion. They should have declared a curwef. Implemented restricted movments zones during daylight hours, Deployed armed response units ACP's and water cannon crowed control. People within restricted zones during curfew hours should be considerd threats and engaged on site. If a hard stance was taken on day one we wouldnt be still dealing with the situation now. You cant make an omlet if you dont crack some eggs

took the words right off my keyboard

[dbeardslee]

One major difference I see between the riots in UK and the ones that have happened here is this - when our 'poor and oppressed' get a bug in their bonnets, they generally tear up their own neighborhoods (never did quite get the point of that 'strategy'). Seems in the UK they've gone well beyond their own neighborhoods. That's probably got something to do with England's much higher population density too, as we're a lot more spread out in the U.S. Our laws permit the National Guard to conduct operations in the U.S. but the Army is not permitted to. Do the UK's laws permit the use of their army for domestic operations?

[chrismetallica1]

Yes, The army can be brought in to control situations under the civil contingencies act of 2004. Essentialy it is the UK equivelant of the US declaration of a state of emergency. The priminister and the queen have to agree to envoke the civil contingencies act. It is mainly drafted towards foreign threat however includes domestic terrorism and major civil unrest and major desiease outbreak . The issue with the UK is that the government are more concerned about european rights laws and compensation related pay outs if heavy handed policing is used. If the civil contingencies act was envoked it is the only only Act of Parliament which may not be amended by emergency regulations is the Human Rights Act 1998. Thefore anyone causing civil unrest would have forgone there rights.

[rodfair]

You talk about that.
On another forum I am active on: SAMA 82 (US) There are a lot of Para veterans of "The Troubles" dying to be recalled!
Another interesting thing from the gun hating/scared Brit public...A survey noted, when baton rounds, plastic bullets were mentioned. over 30% of the public wanted real ammo used!

Stay safe Chris and look after the Liver Birds for me.

[Taurus_9mm]

More footage of the rioting here:

LiveLeak.com - Hackney Riots - The narrow way / Mare Street