Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 53
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Member #
    13828
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Posts
    17,660
    Liked
    20681 times

    Disobeying the law - Debate

    The point was raised in another thread that the "good guys" obey the law. I took exception. Some laws must be resisted by anyone of conscience. Our founding fathers were breaking the law when they resisted the authority of the Crown's representatives. John Brown was breaking the law in trying to abolish slavery. Mahatma Gahndi was breaking the law in order to break the rule of the British over his people. Martin Luther King was breaking the Jim Crow laws.
    The list of people who broke the law for reasons of conscience is long. It also includes Leon Trotsky, Bill Ayers, and Gavrilo Princip.
    The verdict of villain or hero is written only by the historians, and even then there is disagreement. There is no easy answer, my point is only that the law cannot serve as a substitute for conscience. The only path for a moral man is to decide for himself in full acceptance of the consequences.
    Keeper of The Pledge

    Elected Perpetual Dictator of the Universe by a landslide.

    I have ridden a motorcycle faster than Mach 0.25.

    Because a copy is returned for postfix ++ expressions, statements such as (c++)++; won't work as expected.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Member #
    17239
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    119
    Liked
    7 times

    Re: Disobeying the law - Debate

    (I started a thread in politics and have closed it, this was my first entry).

    In the original thread, I used the term "Good Guy". I borrowed the term, "Good Guys" from my 10 year old son. Once when I was talking to the police, I could tell he was worried. I merely explained that the Police Officer doesn't know that I'm a "Good Guy" yet. He promptly shouted, "He's a Good Guy". For the purpose of this discussion, Good Guy would mean law-abiding, morally upright individual.

    First, I made the point that being a "Good Guy" means following all of the laws. We are a nation of laws and these laws have brought peace and order. At times, bad laws are written. When that happens, we as citizens work to have those laws changed. If we decide to disobey the laws that we disagree with, we risk anarchy.

    There are many laws (especially those related to firearms) that I disagree with. I own a Saiga, if I want to hi-capacity magazines with it, I have to modify it with a certain number of US manufactured parts. This law is complete nonsense. However, it is a law of the nation to which I am a citizen, so I followed the law and made the mods. I could find no case of anyone being prosecuted for solely a 922r violation (the law that covers importing non-sporting firearms) so my risk was very low of being caught. However, it is a law of the nation to which I am a citizen, so I followed the law and made the mods.

    During the Clinton administration, the "Defense of Marriage Act" was passed. One aspect of this was if one state allowed gay marriage, another state did not have to legally recognize that marriage. This year, the Obama administration stated that they would no longer enforce this law by the power of the Justice Department. Personally, I'm not a fan of the government regulating marriage at all but there was a law that Obama didn't agree with, so he stopped enforcing it.

    As a Good Guy, I want fewer laws since I will likely follow them. If we only follow those laws that we agree with or those laws where the likelihood of being punished is high, can we really call ourselves, "Good Guys".

    So, at the end of the day, Could I look into the eyes of my son and say, "I'm a Good Guy" if I didn't follow the law?

    Ok, that's my basic premise. I anxiously await your respectful replies.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Member #
    17239
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    119
    Liked
    7 times

    Re: Disobeying the law - Debate

    Quote Originally Posted by MadKaw
    The point was raised in another thread that the "good guys" obey the law. I took exception. Some laws must be resisted by anyone of conscience. Our founding fathers were breaking the law when they resisted the authority of the Crown's representatives. John Brown was breaking the law in trying to abolish slavery. Mahatma Gahndi was breaking the law in order to break the rule of the British over his people. Martin Luther King was breaking the Jim Crow laws.
    The list of people who broke the law for reasons of conscience is long. It also includes Leon Trotsky, Bill Ayers, and Gavrilo Princip.
    The verdict of villain or hero is written only by the historians, and even then there is disagreement. There is no easy answer, my point is only that the law cannot serve as a substitute for conscience. The only path for a moral man is to decide for himself in full acceptance of the consequences.
    Excellent post and points.

    I would argue that they were necessary for their time. During the revolutionary war, we were ruled by a tyrant and breaking the law was appropriate. Gandhi and Trotsky would fall under the same category. In a limited government democracy, where we generally get the law we deserve, breaking the law to make a political point is usually detrimental to success.

    Martin Luther King would prove the exception. I do agree that he was breaking the law of the land but serving a higher law. That said, I don't know of many Martin Luther King's in the world.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Member #
    11544
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    308
    Liked
    105 times

    Re: Disobeying the law - Debate

    I had commented on the other thread Madkaw is referring to and disagreed with the point there. I believe thoricuncle has hit the nail on the head. I do have issues with the Justice Department ro the President having the authority to enforce only the laws they see fit to. This does seem to hand over a substantial amount of control that they were not entrusted with. Congress makes the laws (stupid as they may be sometimes), President job is to enforce them, The supreme court determines if the laws are just. I know I learned that somewhere along the way.

    My opinion - As citizens, we should obey the law, unless following that law injures an innocent. Our laws are designed to protect the innocent, if not we've lost our way.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Member #
    13102
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Central Iowa
    Posts
    1,522
    Liked
    314 times

    Re: Disobeying the law - Debate

    this was in thoricuncle's thread and I'll just copy and paste it here, it's in response to his initial posting there.
    Great write up. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you had to say. While saying that I'm guilty of one of the most basic laws...seatbelt wear, I just hate wearing one. I'll wear it on long road trips, but just cruising to dinner or the grocery store I can't stand putting it on. One law that Iowa hasn't passed yet is the motorcycle helmet law, I hate wearing a helmet, but do so when I go to states that it is a law. I find it ridiculous to have a seat belt law and not have a motorcycle helmet law, but for now am happy that iowa doesn't have one.

    As far as gun laws are concerned, I follow every one to the "t". There is simply no future in my eyes betting my 2nd amendment rights on disobeying a law I don't agree with.
    OEF Veteran and Cornfed Iowa Boy
    PT1911ss
    Gen 4 Glock 17/19
    DPMS AP4

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Member #
    13929
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,428
    Liked
    739 times

    Re: Disobeying the law - Debate

    Overall, our right to a vioce to debate the nessessity of a law and the right to vote (most of the time) on laws are what seperate us from the worldly herd.

    these are great posts and some that I enjoy reading the most.
    When the SHTF, don't be infront of the fan.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Member #
    13375
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Peoria, Illinois
    Posts
    231
    Liked
    73 times

    Re: Disobeying the law - Debate

    There are just so many, if you say you haven't broke any, I'd have to say you're lying. Going above the speed limit, for example. Anymore, laws/ordinances are made for a select few groups. I must say I break the law everyday. It's only illegal if you get caught.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Member #
    13929
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,428
    Liked
    739 times

    Re: Disobeying the law - Debate

    We have laws on the books here saying you can't have your trashcan at the curb after 24 hours of pickup. Ladies cannot were highheel shoes downtown. No spitting on the street (except farmers). I garentee none of these have been inforced for a hundred years. So, there are things that need to be rewritten.
    Many laws accoss the country need to be handles in a case by case basis.

    That is why we have 100 lawyers for every one person.
    When the SHTF, don't be infront of the fan.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Member #
    15627
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Maineville, OH
    Posts
    12,331
    Liked
    12278 times

    Re: Disobeying the law - Debate

    There are just so many, if you say you haven't broke any, I'd have to say you're lying.
    I totally agree - you probably break half a dozen before lunch every day and don't even know it. They say ignorance of the law is no excuse, but NOBODY knows the entire law. That's why we have so damn many lawyers in this country. The law I concentrate on obeying is the 'golden rule.' I figure that keeps me on pretty solid ground from an 'intent' perspective, as well as a little basic common sense - which will keep you out of more trouble than anything.
    "The marksman aims primarily at himself"
    - Zen saying

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Member #
    13828
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    SE Michigan
    Posts
    17,660
    Liked
    20681 times

    Re: Disobeying the law - Debate

    There is a difference between laws supporting slavery and laws forcing you to wear a seatbelt.
    I realize there is the basic principle that being allowed to live your life for your own sake is a good, but you cannot make the case that there is evil done by your wearing a seatbelt. You may break a seatbelt law for convenience, or out of stubbornness, but it would be hard to make a moral case against the use of seatbelts.
    While it is clear to me that laws such as those supporting slavery are in the other group, and would not just allow, but require any man of conscience to disobey them, it is difficult for me to pick one out of today's sea of laws and regulations.
    I guess my basic point is that obeying the law must come second to obeying your conscience.

    It has been said that our country was founded upon enlightened self-interest. The problem today is neither a shortage nor excess of self-interest, but rather a shortage of enlightenment.
    Keeper of The Pledge

    Elected Perpetual Dictator of the Universe by a landslide.

    I have ridden a motorcycle faster than Mach 0.25.

    Because a copy is returned for postfix ++ expressions, statements such as (c++)++; won't work as expected.

 

 
Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

10 historical figures who broke the law for reasons of conscience
,
10 people who broke the law for reasons of conscience
,
broke the law for reasons of conscience
,
historical figure who broke the law for reasons of conscience
,
historical figures that broke the law for reasons of conscience
,
historical figures who broke the law
,

historical figures who broke the law for reasons of conscience

,
people that broke the law for reason of conscience
,

people who broke the law for reasons of conscience

,
who broke the law for reasons of conscience
Click on a term to search for related topics.