I'm looking at the 3" .357 mag or the .38 special in a 2" barrel. Any help on what would be best for concealed personal defense would be great. I own a Glock 27 which is highly concealable, yet quite heavy. I want a highly concealable small frame revolver with enough punch to take down the most drugged up assailant possible.
My particular favorite CC Taurus revolver is the Model 851 "Protector" which is their verison of the S&W Bodyguard series.
These revolvers have a "hump back" frame which keeps the hammer spur from snagging on coat or pants pockets during the draw; but leaves enough protruding to facilitate single action cocking for slow deliberate fire.
I have the Total Titanium version of the M-851 which weighs in at 17.3 oz., but you can get the same gun in an alloy/titanium configuration that only weighs 15.5 oz.
These little blasters can be loaded from "mild to wild" for just about any practice or defensive application.
My particular favorite CC Taurus revolver is the Model 851 "Protector" which is their verison of the S&W Bodyguard series.
These revolvers have a "hump back" frame which keeps the hammer spur from snagging on coat or pants pockets during the draw; but leaves enough protruding to facilitate single action cocking for slow deliberate fire.
I have the Total Titanium version of the M-851 which weighs in at 17.3 oz., but you can get the same gun in an alloy/titanium configuration that only weighs 15.5 oz.
These little blasters can be loaded from "mild to wild" for just about any practice or defensive application.
If you want to see what he means, take an advanced course, that includes the Tueller drill, from 21 ft. I have done that drill twice in the last 30 days. I got shots off, and close to center mass, but he still would have gotten to me and done damage.
Being able to hit accurately, with what you carry is the best. But stopping a drugged out assailant is a tough bill to fill.
One tap to the head.....game over. I don't care how drugged up one is. I shoot you through the brain, all fuctions cease. Sure, I know, center mass, but I'm there to end the threat, not follow rules. If the threat still comes after shooting a few times in the chest, well, I guess the only way to end it is a head shot. Good night.
Well getting to your gun, pulling it and aimed fire to the head in 21 ft is a lot tougher that I even thought. I was watching about 12 people in our group, and if the assailant was inside 21 ft, (like 16 ft), many could not even get their gun out. The best got 1 shot off before the target hit end of run (about a foot from your face).
I am far from the best that was there, and got off 4 or 5 rds from 21 ft, but I knew it was coming (and had bladed to away from the target and gotten my hand ready for the draw). I hit COM, but one was low, 2 or 3 were in the middle, and one rd (I tihnk it was my first, was high in the arm).
So good luck on that stopping head shot if he is charging at you. Because if your not moving, or very accurate he will get too you more times than not. Not one guy in 24 got a head shot on target. Only a very few that were not COM. and they were arms, or pelvic area.
I believe any of the Utla-Lite series are perfect for conceal carry. One thing though, don't go to the range expecting to fire 100 rounds. After a while it's kind of hard to see the target through all those tears. It's defiantly not a target pistol.
One tap to the head.....game over. I don't care how drugged up one is. I shoot you through the brain, all fuctions cease. Sure, I know, center mass, but I'm there to end the threat, not follow rules. If the threat still comes after shooting a few times in the chest, well, I guess the only way to end it is a head shot. Good night.
Actually, the organ at the base of the brain, called to Medula Oblangata (SP?) is the only spot in the body that will provide an instant kill. If your shot goes high through the brain or off to the side through the brain your assailant may very well keep right on coming. That little organ is about the size of an egg. Pretty hard to hit that with any gun let along a snubby that probably will only group shots in a 3" - 4" cluster, at best. Add to that a moving target, the element of surprise, adrenaline rush, etc. Pretty tough shot to make with any certainty.
Correct...all functions cease ONLY when that little egg nestled at the top of your spinal column is hit. A hit to any other part beside the medulla oblongata does NOT guarantee instant incapacitation.
This topic got out of context and that was my fault....so back on topic.
We are talking about humans, correct? I'm an average built/sized person and let me tell you, when someone comes at me and I tap them in the head or chest and they keep comming, I am of the belief time is on my side and not on theirs. They may keep comming but being of average size and capabilities, I believe I can hold my own against any assailant comming at me whom is drugged or not if him/her is hit in the head/chest with a round or two. Within a minute or two, the body will realize it has been hit severely and will eventually cause said assailant to cease all operations aside from taking care of his/her wounds. Like the bear who gets shot in the heart and keeps attacking until it realizes its been hit, then it falls to the ground like anything else that dies. Time is on the persons side who gets the first rounds to penetrate. On top of that, most people are puss#ies and once they know they've been hit, they'll hit the ground.
They may keep comming but being of average size and capabilities, I believe I can hold my own against any assailant comming at me whom is drugged or not if him/her is hit in the head/chest with a round or two.
You may be seriously underestimating the affect drugs can have on people.
If you shoot a pothead, you'll probably get the results you intended but there are plenty of other drugs that could change the same scenario into something with a different outcome.
In an actual gunfight...a minute or two as you stated...is an eternity. I've been there and know what to expect. I really don't think you realize what can happen in 3 seconds....let alone a minute or two.
I pray that you never need to draw and fire your gun in self-defense, because the mentality you are displaying here WILL get you killed in the street.
+1 on the 85 UL .38 2" Snubby. Bought one for my fiance who loves it and she can actually shoot it very well. I have found myself putting it in my front pocket when taking walks or quick trips to the store very light easy to conceal but better be close to hit the bg.
In an actual gunfight...a minute or two as you stated...is an eternity. I've been there and know what to expect. I really don't think you realize what can happen in 3 seconds....let alone a minute or two.
I pray that you never need to draw and fire your gun in self-defense, because the mentality you are displaying here WILL get you killed in the street.
I haven't actually had to fire my weapon on anyone but have come across drugged up people before which I've had to draw down on (including one which approached me with a block of concrete over his head, threatening to hit me with). Any time weight needed to be applied, my first line of defense was my spray which most of the time sparked the flight response from any perp. I carry a gun in case someone else points a gun at me. Thats it. If it comes down to me defending my life, like I said, one can be at an advantage if they get the first hits thus meaning you will be able to wait out the time it takes for the assailant to bleed out. Time is on your side. No matter how heavy or hard that person is, after a minute or so of bleeding, they will fall. If you can't hold your own against a bleeding assailant thats been shot once or twice, well, I'm sorry to say, you shouldn't carry, because at that point you will die.
I haven't actually had to fire my weapon on anyone but have come across drugged up people before which I've had to draw down on (including one which approached me with a block of concrete over his head, threatening to hit me with). Any time weight needed to be applied, my first line of defense was my spray which most of the time sparked the flight response from any perp. I carry a gun in case someone else points a gun at me. Thats it. If it comes down to me defending my life, like I said, one can be at an advantage if they get the first hits thus meaning you will be able to wait out the time it takes for the assailant to bleed out. Time is on your side. No matter how heavy or hard that person is, after a minute or so of bleeding, they will fall. If you can't hold your own against a bleeding assailant thats been shot once or twice, well, I'm sorry to say, you shouldn't carry, because at that point you will die.
Just a point of curiosity? Have you ever taken a gun related self defense coarse taught by an NRA certified trainer? I ask only because the statements you're making here fly in direct contradiction to every training scenario I've ever read or participated in over the past 40 years or so.
One more question; If you shoot an armed assailant and it takes that assailant one or two minutes to bleed out, how many times do you think that assailant can pull the trigger of his gun in the period of time he has left to live? If your answer is one or more, then you may need to rethink your plan here.
+1 on the 85 UL .38 2" Snubby. Bought one for my fiance who loves it and she can actually shoot it very well. I have found myself putting it in my front pocket when taking walks or quick trips to the store very light easy to conceal but better be close to hit the bg.
My M85UL Stainless rides in a pocket 24/7 when my little Kel Tec isn't there. It's very accurate, so accurate I always carry it when I know I'm going to be afield because I can shoot rabbits with it, the head off a snake if I want at close range, put down hogs in my trap with it all the time. It's very fast on the draw and easy to point shoot at close range center mass. I love the thing. I have literally thousands of rounds through it, mostly light loads, and carry a +P 158 JHP for serious social work. It was my first Taurus, bought new for $285 IIRC, but I traded a P95 Ruger in on it. I don't remember what I had to boot on the trade, but wasn't much. I don't think it was an even swap, don't remember. I think I had to boot a little. But, I didn't give, but about 300 for the Ruger and had issues with it at the time concerning magazine availability over 10 rounds. I had bought a P85 from a guy with 5 15 round Ruger mags that wouldn't work in the P95, fit, but caused a jam now and then. So, I made the swap when I got my CCW license. I have not regretted that trade at all. Fantastic carry. What lured me to the M85UL was that it was one of the first alloy frame guns that was +P rated. I feed it mostly standard pressure stuff, but I've put probably 500 rounds of +P through it and it's tight as ever.
I carry both my Kel Tec and my M85 in a pocket. If the 85 were a steel gun, it'd verge on too heavy. I had a Rossi M88 stainless and didn't like it in a pocket. I sold that gun after I got the Taurus because I simply didn't shoot it or carry it anymore. Kinda wish I'd kept it, though, cause you can never have too many guns, but my buddy likes it and it made him happy. The Taurus is a superior gun for carry, though, because of it's light weight and it has a much better, lighter, smoother DA trigger, best out of the box DA trigger I've ever fired.
We are talking about humans, correct? I'm an average built/sized person and let me tell you, when someone comes at me and I tap them in the head or chest and they keep comming, I am of the belief time is on my side and not on theirs. They may keep comming but being of average size and capabilities, I believe I can hold my own against any assailant comming at me whom is drugged or not if him/her is hit in the head/chest with a round or two. Within a minute or two, the body will realize it has been hit severely and will eventually cause said assailant to cease all operations aside from taking care of his/her wounds. Like the bear who gets shot in the heart and keeps attacking until it realizes its been hit, then it falls to the ground like anything else that dies. Time is on the persons side who gets the first rounds to penetrate. On top of that, most people are puss#ies and once they know they've been hit, they'll hit the ground.
This was in the LA area. I did a police ride-along where the officer ended up having to shoot to protect us. Later tests showed the BG was on cocaine and not totally wasted either. The dude was about 25 foot away or so when it began. We were doing a walk around on an empty warehouse that bums were using occasionally. Walked into a drug buy. BG was actually facing us but not paying attention. LEO hollered and the buyer ran. The BG on the other hand ran towards us. As he began he grabbed what turned out to be a cut down shotgun so rusted it would not function. You could rack the rounds but the weapon would not fire, thankfully as you'll see.
As soon as the weapon came up the cop holler for me to drop and drew. Honestly the fastest draw I've ever seen. Made the big boys on the shooting circuits look so slow in fact. His first round was way to high tho (later said it was his first actual shoot. He had to draw many times but never pull the trigger). It hit the dude in the forehead. Staggered him slightly but sure didn't stop him. The rest of the mag went into a palm sized group in the center of the chest just slightly left of the breast bone. Afterwards I could not tell you how many shots I heard. Almost sounded like one long continuous shot.
As the LEO reloaded he was backing up and the dude was still coming. Took two more rounds to drop him and he was touching the officer by then.
This was just coke, that oft used recreational drug. I've since then seen cop vids of dudes on PCP where the rounds just appeared to piss the BG off.
Oh that round to the forehead? It bounced off. The others all went into or around the heart, all expanded and did the job they were meant for. Said to be massive internal damage. One of the officers who showed afterwards said he had seen things like that on dudes who were NOT on drugs as well.
So aim for the chest or center mass. And do not stop until the BG is down.
Sarge
According to SWAT, headshots are for them with their rifles and even then the first may not always do the job. 9 times out of 10 it will drop the dude but it may not kill them.
I sure like my 85 ultralite with Crimson Trace, but have a Kahr PM-9 that's very concealable, even in pocket or Don Hume IWB. My SR9 Ruger is very slim in the Mitch Rosen made for it. In the right clothes you can conceal a lot in a Null skeletonized shoulder rig, you can't even see my Kimber Ultra Carry II (3",.45,1911) in it. Now if I can buy enough ammo before the price REALLY goes up...
I sure like my 85 ultralite with Crimson Trace, but have a Kahr PM-9 that's very concealable, even in pocket or Don Hume IWB. My SR9 Ruger is very slim in the Mitch Rosen made for it. In the right clothes you can conceal a lot in a Null skeletonized shoulder rig, you can't even see my Kimber Ultra Carry II (3",.45,1911) in it. Now if I can buy enough ammo before the price REALLY goes up...
I have a Rosen Workman for my P11, but normally carry it in a pocket anymore. That Rosen is some FINE leather work. I don't think there's any finer on the market. Expensive, but worth every dime IMHO.
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