PT 709 or 740: Does yours shoot point-of-aim?

[101Shooter]

Just 2 notes!
low and left is a common trigger control problem with right handed shooters, apply where needed!
and Taurus makes 3 different height front sight blades for the 709/740, (i did know the heights but have forgotten) but basically they are stock, short, and shorter.

Thanks! This is good to know about the sight options in case I get a gun that is shooting low, as this seems to be the case for some folks. jrh

[96-EJ6]

Mine was low-left out of the box, but now hits POA after adjusting the sights.

[KYBill]

My 709 shoots low left. I thought it was me but I had my grandson shoot it and it did the same for him.This kid is a dead eye as he's shot bumblebees out of the air with a BBgun.

[Qwiks draw]

My PT709 shoots to point of aim at 15 yards. I use 124 grain ammo with it.

From another thread:
Glad to hear that it was an ammo problem. Since there are so many factors to consider that's why the in-deep analysis even if it wasn't the operator.

No way to totally know since we are not there to observe whats going on.

What's written below is taken from a PT145 thread, but this can be true for any compact/subcompact gun, caliber, and the ammo.

Smaller guns are more finicky about ammo types than their bigger full size brethren.

Example: Para Ordnance Warthog comes to mind. When it first came out there were a lot of reliability problems and Para could not give them away. Most went into storage.All of this was because of reliability problems having to do with bullet shape,weight, and the fact that hardball of certain types were all that would feed through it. Fast forward almost a decade and the Warthog was reintroduced though it wasn't marketed that way.

Whether these pistols were reworked or not I am not sure of. They are back out and heavily marketed.Reliability does not seem to be the issue anymore.

Being bulky through the grips didn't help sell the pistol.Double stack .45ACP don't you know. Trying to get a solid grip and carrying the pistol CCW were also strikes against an otherwise decent design.

Mass Ayoob,Chuck Karwan, and Clint Smith have documented the troubles of getting small ,compact, or sub compact.45ACP pistols to work well under most conditions.

Engineering the pistols to work has and have been major problems. Physics is one of the main problems. Whether it's the slide mass, recoil springs,firing pins weight and mass,feed ramp angle,or other factors there is only so much that can be done.

Colt ran into troubles with the Officers ACP 1911 for a lot of the same reasons stated above.Took a few years to work the bugs out and make it a reliable pistol. Gunsmiths made a fortune having to tweak compact 1911's and traditional DA/SA semi autos.

So while things have improved somewhat over the years there are still problems finding the right balance for proper fit and function. And there are a few trade offs for going with smaller guns. Parameters for these just are not that forgiving.

The one compact .45ACP pistol that seemed to work with just about any bullet type or shape was ironically the Star PD.

So expect to have to put some effort and experimentation into reliable loads for these smaller pistols regardless of caliber if they are a major one for self defense.

No mistake. It's because of these very things that this develops in these and other pistols. Balancing the parts and types of springs, this includes the strength of those springs, are part of the engineering problems.

I need to clarify this better. What was being said was that there are a lot of factors that go into this and there are compromises on just how and what can be put into a pistol design.

There are trade offs and no free lunch anywhere along the line with this.

With lead free or practically lead free primers being mandated on quite a few types of ammo, trying to find a happy medium and a spring strong enough to get the firing pin to set off these primers is a real chore.

Reduced size guns means that the spring power is going to have to be compromised somewhere along the line. The smaller the pistol the harder it is to come up with parts that can do what full size parts can do.

Sometimes primers are too hard, too soft,or the lead free primers will not give consistent performance.

While the lead free stuff is getting better there is still much room for consistent performance to be established.

This was the intent of the post. Trying to cover all the physics and engineering aspects in one post without trying to get long winded.

When making compact pistols there are a lot of obstacles to overcome. All that can be done for most of these is compromises with some shortcomings we all may need to learn to live with.

Could be why I am a revolver person for the most part. Things are a bit more simpler with the revolvers all the way around despite the sizes. This is subjective and an opinion, but what has been observed. Smiley

Below are some related items that others may want to consider. Some of this is already known by most, but can get overlooked or forgotten easily. It happens to all of us at sometime.

First of all the dead on is correct as is. The target is supposed to be fuzzy and the sights clear just like the pictures show. Or should. If you sight properly then the bullets will impact where they are supposed to without seeing the tiny bulls eye. That's the way it works and always has.
If a shooter does what is shown in the pictures properly then they will hit properly using either type of shooting.

For some 6 o'clock works well, but this is not normally technique used for a defense handgun. Expecting very tiny little groups to be in a target with pistols and revolvers that are not target grade is ludicrous at best.
Dead on is normally taught for defense weapons.

One does shoot the best they can, but expecting one ragged hole or target quality is again not consistent with reality. Guns that are target grade normally have ammo and firearms designed for more consistent hitting the same spot in very tight little groups. There are exceptions.

Engineering is more precise ballistically for the ammo and the fit and function of the target pieces used to do this with. Tolerances are tight all across the board.The amount of research and development that goes into target grade guns is a lot more effort than what goes into defense pistols or revolvers.

For defense accuracy is needed as well. However the precision with which shots can be placed is not on par realistically with target grade guns. Otherwise target grade guns are all one could or would buy. Expense would put this out of a majority of civilians reach.

Not under adrenaline dump,extreme stress and duress, fine motor skill loss, heart pounding, fight or flight situations is one going to realistically calmly shoot the human target/s as if on picnic and out for relaxation.

Special units use target grade pistols and revolvers because of the need to be more precise with their shots than civilians. They are trained to a high degree most civilians will never match or be able to for expense or reasons of time. The special unit operators learn to do this under stress, shoot amounts of ammo at prodigious rates, train incessantly,and have budgets to allow for this. Civilians normally don't have access to this sort of thing.

http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/70...p?topic=2418.0

The above link deals with some of the vagaries that go into shooting defense sidearms.

Expense,harsh operating conditions, harsh environments, reliable fit and function,as well as humans being bigger targets, mean that gun makers have to compromise and reach a level of ability for the gun to deliver what is normally accepted "combat accuracy" at reasonable combat ranges for sidearms. Gun makers have done that.


POI will very if a 6 o'clock hold is used vs. a dead on sight picture.Depends on how you zero the gun or shoot it as well.
Target shooters are well served by the 6 o'clock hold. Defense shooters are not.
Most shooting instructors or schools use the dead on for defense teaching. Not written in stone.

There are many factors and vagaries that have been gone over again and again where shooters were having troubles.

Could be the culmination of a number of things and we staff and members are not there to see each person on a case by case basis shoot. Nor the conditions, nor do we see the stance ,grip,or trigger follow through. wish we could, but realistically can't.

So we advise the best we can covering practically ALL the factors we can.Whether operator error or inexperience,real gun troubles, intangibles we cannot know about, or a combination of any of the above described factors,we can only surmise what is going on.

Even bullet weight, kind of ammo,brand of ammo, or even what batch are factors that come into play here.

Then there is the fact the fixed sighted guns,especially compact or sub-compacts, are hard to regulate the sight on. Doesn't matter what brand,make ,or model by any company, this is true for all of them. Many of the factors in the link come into play here.So do others too numerous to mention.

With all that said, the companies do the best they can with what they have.

Fixed sighted guns are going to shoot high,low,left right. Even the sights on alike samples will not have the same POI. These are massed produced non-target guns at price rates the regular buying public can afford. Some more expensive than others. High price is not and indicator of quality. Many like to think so but I digress.
Ever since firearms were invented fixed sights rarely hit perfectly to point of aim. Too many factors and vagaries enter in.

If one has a fixed sighted gun one has to take the time to experiment to find the best combo of ammo for fit,function,reliability, and for accuracy. POI does figure in, but is not the most important factor. Other wise hardball or target ammo of any shape would do.

One gets to the nearest POI that is as close to dead center as possible, but for many reasons already stated that may not be realistic. One will have to learn where to put the sights for dead center hits and then learn to live with that.

Experimenting with the factors described above takes time,dedication and experience. Each trip to the range need to have a goal other than just putting ammo downrange or shooting tight groups. There are a lot of factors in defense shooting that need to be addressed and kept up with to be proficient.

All this is covered somewhere within the forums here and gets discussed time and time again.

So yes, it is possible the guns shoot low.It is also operator usage and the many factors in HOW they go about shooting that come into play. This as well as the factors of the gun,ammo,and environment. Even humidity,cold, and heat play into this.

There are a plethora of new shooters here at this forum. New even to the type of guns or gun they shoot. Have to learn the vagaries and performance abilities of gun ammo, and the person. This holds true for even those who shoot regularly and have experience with most or all types of firearms. Even the old vet shooters have things to learn and find out. We never stop learning nor gaining experience.

So coming in here and picking on the example pictures when there are so many factors seems silly to a degree. There may be better pictures and examples describing this. There might not be too.

Shooting low can be the gun... and it can be the shooter.. or the ammo, or other factors. Combinations of factors also as has been seen.

Same goes for shooting too high,low, or somewhere in between.


Drummin_man62 had the right idea for those of us who are having sight issues and it is the user for the most part. Even us so called shooting vets can have an off day or develop bad habits. Hard to unlearn, too. Cheesy

There are a lot of things to consider.

Mentoring by another qualified individual who can use constructive criticism is a good way to help get to proficiency. Then staying at that level of proficiency is another thing. Smiley

Sights can be changed if need be and replaced by others. Then there are those of us who make due and make minor corrections with our fixed sights to hit the center.

Did this with revolvers and learned where,even at long range (100-200 yards) where to hold to get dead center hits with certain specimens of handgun. Not all, just a few.
This with fixed sights.

It is realistic to expect to hit the general target as well as we can. Perfection and total precision will not happen for the most part with combat handguns. Some can get to that level. Some combat handguns are that precise, but are the exception rather than the rule. They will not necessarily be the majority.

If you see the target clearly the sight very well may be too fuzzy for good work. Even if you can't see the tiny bulls-eye, the bullets will hit the mark.

This also depends on range and realistic targets for realistic work for that particular gun.

Members and staff try to provide adequate info and advice. I think they do that at a very competent level.
Figured this all needed to be said or covered.

There are exceptions to this. For example, there are some of us who have regular revolvers or pistols that shoot groups that are up there with target grade quality sidearms. Cherish those dearly if you have pistols or revolvers that can one hole for many shots it or shoot ragged little groups at medium to long range.

End of quote.

So I am glad that you shooters figured out what the problem was. We were just pitching in to try and diagnose a regular occuring problem and to help solve it.
Happy trails.

Sight Picture - Bob Tuley Look this site over as it's a good one.
Shooting Help for a Newbie - TheFiringLine Forums

[sian]

Bought my PT740 gently used, looks like it had a feedramp polish on it, and not much else. Put a pinky extender on it and good to go. Was way left and low to start with, now with the rear sight all the way up it still shoots about 3" low at 10 yards. Time for a new front sight!

[JerryMac]

my 740 is poa right out of the box....and think it is now my most bestest favoriteist carry gun.

[jimbo44]

My pt 709 shot a foot low and left out of the box, I sent it to Miami, they said it was fixed, it still shoots 6 inches
low and left. I have put on a baby hogue and pearce grip extensions but haven't got to shoot it yet.